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10-20-2001, 07:24 PM
I've been playing more stud lately at the middle limts and I would like to know how a serious stud player keeps track of the exposed cards on 3rd street and on later streets.


One method I was using(Roy West)was to try and remember the exposed cards in increasing order. I feel that worked except it was almost impossiable to remember cards that were exposed on later streets and put them into order as well.


Also I feel that it is much harder to concentrate on the other players and what they are doing. Thinking about what range of hands they might play and looking for 3rd street tells.


I could really use some advcie on this.


How about suits any tricks for remember suits. Most importantly I want to remember the cards AND still maintain my alertness regardind thinking about the hand and how it will be played and the other players and their hands


Thanks

10-20-2001, 10:47 PM
if you truly cant remember the 3rd street cards you may not have the ability to beat decent players, take care. but barring that try to get a system like maybe bunching them or really just paying close heed to the cards that affect the hands out that are still playing. but if you can t remember 8 cards from the first round, you need to evaluate your abilities.

maybe with more concentration and practice at home with a deck you will get the right system. good luck.

10-21-2001, 12:09 AM
Dear Kick It Up

Do not put folded exposed cards in order.

Mentally repeat two or three times the folded cards on 3rd. St.

On the average,you will need to remember only four folded cards

on 3rd. St.

You might want to make a quick note of the rank of two or three

cards that have folded on 4th. st.

Beyond this point, do not use any more of your mental enegy on this facet of the game.


Make a mental note of three or more of the same suit out on 3rd. St.;consider that suit(s) "dead";the others live.

So far,you have to remember about four to six ranked cards and the "dead" suit.


Put the active players on 3rd. St. on two possible hands each.

Use exposed suits(dead or live) and exposed ranked cards analysis

to help your make a decision.

Forget about 3rd. St. tells. Make a note of later st. tells.


Larry"Sitting Bull"Duplessis

10-21-2001, 12:38 AM
he stated medium stakes. at medium and higher stakes not knowing all the cards or almost all the cards means likely you cant beat the games, thats just the way it is, as the competion gets too tough for a player handicapped as such.

10-21-2001, 08:14 AM
I'm certainly no expert but i remember epxosed cards in the following fashion.


I do not remember actual cards like Kh Qh but i simply keep a track of ranks and suits. I try to pay particular attention to the cards my opponents are likely to have, and i NEVER miss any of my ranks.


I track suits by suit order Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs and just alter the sequence of 4 numbers as the hand progresses. eg. Kd Qs Qc 6s 8s 4h gives a 3,1,1,0 count.


Occasionally i miss a ranking for opponents hands, but otherwise i always know how many of each suit are folded, and exactly how live my cards are.

10-21-2001, 11:56 AM
you sound like an expert. your system works good for you and has merit. still if you can you should know any card that has shown as a few times every play you will be in a spot where remembering whether a certain card has shown will win or save maybe two bets. add that up over a year and see what it costs to be lax.

10-21-2001, 07:02 PM
Dear Kick It,

Ray is right. If you can't remember your doors, you are never going to be able to compete at the higher levels in stud, because all your successful competitors will be able to. And that is just too much of a handicap to over come.But the good news is that you can teach yourself to.


When I started playing I couldn't remember my cards in order. Now only about 1 out of 5,000 people in their lives have had to memorize more trivia than I did in becoming a plastic surgeon. And yet remembering my cards was a problem. So I researched the medical literature on developing a rapid numerical memory.


There are three types of minds, when it comes the card memory. The type you and I have. The type "Rain Man " had. Who was able to memorized numbers with out any conscious thought. And a hybrid type which are a mixture of the two ,and can remember numbers with little thought. (This type makes up the majority of quality card players) They have "always been good at cards " and they don't know exactly why. But forget about them let's talk about you and me and the other 96% of the human race.


So here is what you do. First sit in seat position one or two if you can, this gives you 4 to 5 more seconds to memorize your cards. Which is a lot of time. As the cards come out repeat the ranks of the first three or four cards 3 times. (The human mind remembers sets of 3 or 4 numbers easier than other set sizes) So for example say to yourself 4 8 King (say king not K).

4 8 king, 4 8 king, 4 8 king, 4 8 king .Just by reading this d you already can start to sense how your mind is starting to remember that set. That will take between 2.5 to 3 seconds. Then say the last 4 cards in order. Jack 5 Queen 9, Jack 5 Queen 9, Jack 5 Queen 9, Jack 5 Queen 9. Now say it together as you look at your hole cards. 4, 8, King, Jack, 5, Queen, 9. You will soon see that instantly when you have a 4 in the door and a Queen and another 4 in the hole, that unless you are in an unusual situation your hand is dead.

As the hand is played ALWAYS continue to repeat the cards as the hand is played. For example on 4th street say 4 gets an ace, king gets a suited Jack and 9 pairs his door card. Make a special note as to the suit of the paired door ie say his his door 9 was a heart,heart,heart. Later at 6th street for example it may be very important to know that door suit.(We are going to review suit memory in a minute)

As you watch the hand being played think of the hands as there door ie King got a suited Jack (danger) then he got un unsuited 6 (brick), then he check raised when he got a suited 3. "probable made flush as opposed to a 4 flush with a pair since he made a left sided check raise.

Now what you will find is that for up to several months it will still be hard to remember your cards (studies show that during this time there is an actual physical enlargement in the numerical memory center of your brain. But sooner or later (it took me 5 months,and by then I was ready to give up ) suddenly you ,like me and hundreds other, will one day know that something has happened and you will automatically be able to remember your cards. Like me you will never have a "photographic" "Rain Man " card memory ,but you are going to have a skill that they don't have. You will have a better long term card memory than they do.

All the time not my opponents who know that I can remember hands will ask some thing like, "Doc", "the time Joe check raised with that King high flush ,didn't Tom start with rolled up aces" "No I might say, remember Tom had a dead 4 in the door he didn't "roll out" until fourth street. So thanks to the extra work that you and I do,we will have a better ability to remember players previous action.And this skill is a very powerful weapon. Now most of my opponents think that I have a photographic card memory, when there is probably no one at the table that puts more mental work into remembering the exposed cards than I do. You can speed up your memory development by months if you get Bob Wilson's turbo stud(1-520-367-2520) and as you play the hands force your self to keep memorizing the exposed cards by repeating your ranks in sets of three's or fours. You can review approx. 8 hours worth of hands each 20 minutes.

For the fun of it I have a computer next to my bed and as my wife and I watch TV I will play stud during the commercials or if one of the show's is boring. It has allowed me to play an extra quarter million hands a year for the last 4 years.Meanwhile my wife (who does have a photographic card memory)Sits on her side of the bed going through stud hands much faster than I can. One of the great joys in my life is when she comes up to my table at a casino where she is not known and joins the game. I have to laugh to my self when one of the players says "lucky us we get to play with a girl " "Luck us I say to myself, there's a good chance this table will never know what hit them"

God luck ,You can develop an excellent card memory. But it's going to take continued work. But it is well worth it.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

10-21-2001, 07:56 PM
Dear Sir,


You have just been added to my very long list of poker heroes and mentors. Thank you very much for your post.


hillbilly

10-21-2001, 08:58 PM
this post great...wow..gl

10-21-2001, 09:25 PM
Another good way to learn in to play hearts and 500. In this game you very quickly learn to remember what cards have been played, and you have no face up cards to help.


Just another thought.

10-22-2001, 06:25 PM
Ray Zee,


I don't believe what you are saying is true. From playing in alot of middle limit stud is it painfully obvious that very few remember (including suits) all cards folded.


I could give alot of examples in hands where I didn't even call a bet on 3rd street and people would say things like ," well I was afraid he might hand a particular hand (say a straight or a set." and I would say to myself well 3 tens were folded on 3rd so I don't think he has a hight straight...


Granted remembering as many as possible that are folded in 3rd is the goal but I wouldn't say you can't win if you can't remember all 8.

10-22-2001, 06:43 PM
I strongly suspect there is an easier way to remember all the cards than the usual ways. Since often people can remember entire holdem boards (w/the suit of every card (or at least I can when Im playing well)), in stud one has to remeber at most 6 other cards.


I thought to group cards together by suit (for example before anyone folds any thing and the board is Ac Ad

2c Q c K h 5s 6s and your card) you could remember A2suited (c),

AQs(diamonds), Kh, and 65spades. I haven't perfrected this technique, but I suspect It might be easier as its easier to remember a few groups of info (a group is something like 2 or 3 releated cards) than a lot of unrelateds. Someone told me when people remember phone numbers they think in groups not 7 individuals numbers....


A technique to practice is deal out 7 cards (or start with less), and then try and remember them. I think if one were patient enough to do this for 15mins a day (or maybe less), they would become much better at remembering....


Though I must say in the games Ive played its PAINFULLY obvious how unaware the table is to cards that are folded on 3rd, even more painful is how unaware they are of the mathematics of 7stud.

10-22-2001, 10:29 PM
well maybe in weaker games you are correct as long as your other skills are top notch. but i stand by my comment as if a plyer cant remember 8 cards he probaly doesnt have the all the skills to win at mid and higher limits of stud. perhaps if this was his only shortfall then he could of course win when all the others do the same.

10-23-2001, 04:20 AM
Dear friends,

Once again Ray is exactly right. For months I use to play daily in a 15/30 game, where I knew that there were only three regular players that kept track of their opponent's exposed cards. And I feel that I could have beaten the game with out doing so,but I was able to make much more money because I go to the extra trouble of keeping track of the other players cards. Small advantages make big difference in the amount of money you make playing poker.


Here are two examples: Charlie has a weakness for calling with small live split pairs. He should drop them when they don't improve on fourth street, but he doesn't. He will always make that fifth street call hoping to hit his set and possibly get a free 6th street card. Now on 6th street Charlie hits a small pair on top. Charlies cards are all over the table, and typically there would be only two of us in the hand that keep track of their opponents cards. So when Sam comes out betting his big pair there are only two of us that dump their hands before Charlie can put in his raise. The other two players moan and call the bet and the raise and end up loosing $90 more dollars than they needed to. But since they didn't keep track of Charlie's door card or his calling patterns they end up throwing an extra $90 dollars into a loosing pot.

An hour later Sally (who never saw a flush draw she didn't like) on 6th street draws a card of the same suit as her door card. But since Sally didn't get a suited card on 4th street most of the players aren't aware of the danger they are in. Half of them couldn't even tell you what the suit her door card was. So they either end up betting into her made flush, or getting sandwiched when she raises with her made hand. Being aware of her playing patterns and the increased risk of her hitting a suited 6th street card allowed me to consistently avoid her trap. Meanwhile the other players like sheep end up throwing another $90 dollars away. Then they say "Boy Doc, you were lucky to avoid that bullet"!

Well you might say that sort of situation only happens about twice a session. Well since I play 8 hours a day 5 days a week that comes to an extra $180 dollars a day. And that comes to $900 dollars a week that I either made or didn't loose. And that makes a huge difference over a year. Two hands a session makes the difference between a significant long term winner, and a break even player, or a long term looser.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

PS "lucky stud players are ones that play live cards, and keep track of their opponents exposed cards, and playing patterns". BJM

10-23-2001, 11:41 AM
Both your posts here are really outstanding. It's obvious that you must know the cards that are out and the closer you are to perfect all the time at doing so, the better you'll be as a player. But for me, a lower limits recreational player who might play as much casino poker in six months as you play in a week, I'm simply not interested in "working" hard enough to remember every card. I find I can remember the eight up cards with perhaps 75% accuracy, with 90% or better accuracy on the most "relevant" cards -- ie. the door cards of live players, cards that matter to my hand, cards that may matter to other hands. For now I'm okay with this leak given my interest in poker as hobby not vocation. Watching how the other players play, positional dynamics, etc., on the other hand, is "fun" and I'm much more willing to devote heavy mental energy to this. btw -- your tip about sitting in the 1 or 2 seat to get longer to remember cards is excellent.

10-23-2001, 03:08 PM
Unless you wake up one day with a very serious memory upgrade you are probably very screwed. No offense. You'll struggle.

10-23-2001, 07:30 PM
A little bit different game, but in 7 h/l I group the cards by low/high groups, one ascending and one descending: i.e., AA28 and KJ9. This not only serves the purpose of breaking up the cards into 2 groups, but also organizes them for playing both the high/low split hands.

10-23-2001, 08:28 PM
Dear Ray,

According to Doc AZ, he played for months in a 15-30 stud game where a total of four players were keeping track of exposed cards. The other three players did not exercise this fundamental skill. In a hybrid game like this, even a skillful low limit stud player with a hefty bankroll will beat this type of game.

However,he will not make a Big bet/Hr. profit.


Sitting Bull

10-23-2001, 08:37 PM
Dear Suspicious,

Instead of being "painfully" aware of players' mistakes,

You should be "pleasurably" aware of them!

I'm in pain when the field makes few mistakes.

Then I go home crying!(Smile)


Happy playing


Sitting Bull

10-23-2001, 09:56 PM
maybe larry but i dont think so. its rare to have a game where the fifth best player is still a winner in a game where the limits are low enough where the rake may matter. however if the three are really bad then he may win.

10-27-2001, 03:54 PM
great post doc az..a chance to cut is a chance to heal..gl