Negreanu's preflop call of 75s

[felson]

Negreanu's Cardplayer article (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14324) discusses his play of 75s in the Championship Poker at the Plaza. He has 22k in this hand and is opening from the button.

At the $150-$300 level, my standard raise is usually $800, so that's what I made it. Annie Duke was in the small blind with close to $40,000 in chips, which was a very good-sized stack at that point in the tournament. After an awkward hesitation, she reraised to $2,800. The big blind folded, and it would cost me $2,000 more if I wanted to see the flop. Anytime I can get 2-1 pot odds, implied odds, and position with a suited connector, you can count me in!

[Men the Master]

Based on his read, he should have reraised pre-flop with an amount that would convince Annie that he is willing to pot commit himself.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on his read, he should have reraised pre-flop with an amount that would convince Annie that he is willing to pot commit himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, except 75s isn't the kind of hand to do it with. He uses it for bigger pots to take stabs at, not for a PF confrontation with.

[fnurt]

what read? did I miss something?

[La Brujita]

He discusses his read in the rest of the article, linked above in the original post.

[jomatty]

the idea is to take a relatively cheap flop and break someone, not show them that your pot commited and get a lot of chips commited with a very veak hand if played hot and cold. After the flop his plan obviously changed but that was because he had hit the kind of flop he was hoping for and a situation called for a strong semibluff. In this scenario a preflop reraise would have been a very bad play
matty

[Smoothcall]

Yeah but calling 2k more isnt getting to see cheap flop.

[Daliman]

Yes, but barely over 10% of his stack and in position. Not for the faint-hearted, to be sure.

[Smoothcall]

Problem is unless he flops trips, 2 pair, straight, or a flush. He's gonna be put in yucky spot throughout the rest of hand.

[Daliman]

Ya, but he didn't, and he wasn't.

[Smoothcall]

Don't worry he will find problems, and has in past. Gotta work sometimes otherwise the fishies would never do it right /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lastchance]

Daniel Negreanu is probably one of the best players in the world at playing straight and flush draws.

It's not an easy call, and I probably would fold here, but I have the greatest respect for the ability of Dan N to play this particular position.

[Smoothcall]

How do you know he is the best in the world at this. How do you know he's even good at it. I can only think of 2 times at the moment that i remember one Dan admitted to in an article. First was in The big Paris aviationn clib tourney. He had a huge stack(possibly chip leader 6 or 7 handed) and played a hand in a similar way to this one and lost most or all of his chips and didn't make the t.v. table. big mistake!

[lastchance]

Eh... I pick things up. You're right, I don't know how good he is at this position. But we all know how good Daniel N is, looking at all his HH's he's posted on Cardplayer. You can infer the way he talks about how easy a call it is that he is great at these situations. It is a very high risk play, but a few pros love doing it, for example, Doyle Brunson. (And I know this because I read the NLHE part of Super System) If you want to mix in rags, this is way to go.

And yeah, you can lose a lot of chips here, especially when you hit a flush that isn't the nuts and lose to a flush that's the nuts, but you can also bust someone with a made straight when he has TPTK.

Of course, I could be wrong (on how good Dan N is at these situations), but hey, I like my guess here. Anyone want to prove me right or wrong?

[Smoothcall]

Firstly we don't even know for sure whether Daniel is good or not. Do you know how long a stretch he went without winning anything, and putting himself into serious debt after blowing his ealry winnings from his first world series event. It was long. So finally this year he's running good. While for years he was getting left behind. not trying to bash him. He may or may not be good. Just hate it when people say all these guys are great and the best in the world. And it must be the right play cause so and so did it. Even if daniel was a good player it wouldn't necessarily be because he calls reraises with dopey hands. Maybe that play is the play that's been holding him back all these years and he does other things good that make him good. Just can't say he's the best in the world at making that play. Especially when he selectively writes about a few of them.

[TheJackal]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly we don't even know for sure whether Daniel is good or not. Do you know how long a stretch he went without winning anything, and putting himself into serious debt after blowing his ealry winnings from his first world series event. It was long. So finally this year he's running good. While for years he was getting left behind. not trying to bash him. He may or may not be good. Just hate it when people say all these guys are great and the best in the world. And it must be the right play cause so and so did it. Even if daniel was a good player it wouldn't necessarily be because he calls reraises with dopey hands. Maybe that play is the play that's been holding him back all these years and he does other things good that make him good. Just can't say he's the best in the world at making that play. Especially when he selectively writes about a few of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be really feeling it...

[Smoothcall]

huh.

[Hotel Detect]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly we don't even know for sure whether Daniel is good or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry, but this statement verges on ridiculous.. We KNOW Daniel Negreanu is good, b/c he won the best overall player award at this years WSOP, is the point leader in card player's player of the year competition, has won many large buy in events, and has garnered the praise of fellow pros.

I do not care if he went broke 50 times over .. he is now GREAT.

[Smoothcall]

Why because he had a good year.

[lastchance]

Ok, I'm making a few assumptions here.

This is my logic:
Daniel N is a good player.
When Daniel N talks about the ease of this call, he is making it sound like this is a great situation.
A good player knows what he is talking about when he suggests that this 75s situation is great.
To make this 75s situation great, one would have to very good at playing this type of suited connector in position.

That's my guess. I think it's a pretty damn good one.

It may not be the right play because this guy did it. In fact, I'm seriously doubting this play here. If it was a lesser player, I may be challenging this. However, I am deferring to an excellent poker player here, and someone who writes damn good articles, especially his own HHs.

[Hotel Detect]

[ QUOTE ]
Why because he had a good year.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess Doyle Brunson asked him to contribute to Super System 2 b/c he is just on a hot streak .

[Smoothcall]

Lol. Yes you are definately making a few assumptions.

So if a another t.v. star poker player says this play is wrong then what would you do. You don't really think they would all say this is great play do you. Hellmuth would probably say he's folding AA's in Daniel's spot cause he plays so much better than everybody that he wouldnt risk playing a big pot where someone could get lucky and outdraw him. he's gonna wait until his oponen't has o perecent chance of winning cause he knows if it wasn't for luck he would never lose.

[Smoothcall]

Maybe cause he knows it will sell more books with everybodies hero in there.

[Daliman]

Lotta those problems were exacerbated by female and drug problems.

No more drugs, Recently engaged.

Problem for the rest of us players...

[Smoothcall]

Oh please. Is he the only guy that has had probblems. Differennce is others don't blow hundred's of thousand's of dollars. I never heard about drug problems. is that true or are you embelleshing, not saying your wrong, just wondering as i have never heard of him having drug problem.

[lastchance]

You're trying to argue Daniel N is not a good player. How the hell do you expect to keep this argument up?

No, I don't defer to Phil Hellmuth here. But I think this play is a helluva lot better than folding Aces. I like position, I like suited connectors, I like implied odds. This is a very dangerous situation, but also a very lucrative one. No, it's not an easy call, but, IMHO, playing suited connectors in position well is about what NLHE is all about.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh please. Is he the only guy that has had probblems. Differennce is others don't blow hundred's of thousand's of dollars. I never heard about drug problems. is that true or are you embelleshing, not saying your wrong, just wondering as i have never heard of him having drug problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he has admitted it, and wrote a column about how he had an unsupportive girlfriend that he feels hurt his game. Results seem to concur.

[Smoothcall]

Have heard about girlfriend. Maybe you mean drinking, have heard that. Or did he actually say drugs. Just curious.

[Smoothcall]

I never said he wasn't just said one year don't make you great. He has been on the tour for at least six years and this is the first year since he started playing the tour that you that you could call a truely great year. And even that being said how many has he actually won this year. Until recently winning the borgota i think all he won was a limit holdem event at the w.s.o.p. but had many high finishes which i think call it worthy of a great year. The borgota really tops off a great year. David Williams didn't do so bad either. Got 2nd and 2nd in wsop and borgota i think and nobbody is saying he's great. He Just doesn't get the press Dan gets. not saying david w. is great showing that one really good year doesn't make a career.

Here i was being sarcastic in a playful way. Of coarse Phil wouldn't fold AA preflop.

I don't like the play by Daniel here and there are many other respective tournament players that would agree. It may or may not work for him playing in thiese spots. Maybe this isn't the secret play that makes him do well maybe its something else. What if this an ego play that he just does cause he likes doing it but doesn't have a positive expectation and he can get away with sometimes when he has alot of chips.

[Daliman]

#1 YEs, drugs definitely.

#2 I guess you gotta see him win a couple WSOP's before YOU consider him great. Here's what I do know...

Cardplayer Player of the year standings:
Rank Player Location Points Final Tables Winnings
1 Daniel Negreanu * Las Vegas, NV 6,940 10 $2,650,003
2 John Juanda Marina Del Rey, CA 6,152 13 $1,156,996
3 David Pham Cerritos, CA 4,988 13 $841,835
4 Barry Greenstein Rancho Palos Verdes, CA 4,825 8 $2,092,246
5 Hasan Habib Downey, CA 4,625 14 $1,967,027
6 Can Kim Hua Rosemead, CA 4,495 12 $785,779
7 Lee Watkinson Cheney, WA 4,088 5 $1,453,573
8 Scott Fischman Las Vegas, NV 3,965 10 $581,863
9 Howard Lederer Las Vegas, NV 3,480 7 $768,761
10 Scotty Nguyen Henderson, NV 3,472 10 $615,597
11 Gioi Luong Westminister, CA 3,430 19 $336,221
12 'Miami' John Cernuto Las Vegas, NV 3,291 18 $410,737
13 Hung 'Phi' Nguyen Santa Ana, CA 3,236 8 $366,190
14 T.J. Cloutier * Richardson, TX 3,203 8 $537,870
15 Paul Phillips Las Vegas, NV 3,036 6 $423,335
16 Antonio Esfandiari San Francisco, CA 2,976 2 $1,583,995
17 Andy Miller Abilene, TX 2,972 4 $1,242,088
18 Allen Cunningham Ventura, CA 2,927 10 $371,663
19 Yehia 'Joe' Awada Las Vegas, NV 2,842 5 $662,293
20 John Phan Long Beach, CA 2,816 9 $636,404
21 Justin Cuong Van 'J.C.' Tran Sacramento, CA 2,814 11 $310,058
22 David Williams Dallas, TX 2,800 2 $4,073,800

Williams has made more $$$ by virtue of those 2 high placings, but is WAY behind in Final tables and points.


Also;

All time tournament winnings.

1st Greg Raymer $ 5,100,919
2nd Phil Hellmuth Jr. $ 4,722,451
3rd T.J. Cloutier $ 4,581,435
4th Daniel Negreanu $ 4,234,032
5th Erik Seidel $ 4,110,036
6th David Williams $ 4,073,800
7th Scotty Nguyen $ 4,034,296
8th Barry Greenstein $ 3,655,727
9th John Juanda $ 3,608,281
10th Dan Harrington $ 3,591,132

You will notice that aside from 2 players on the list who got a vast majority of their winnings from a single tourney, David is by far the youngest on the list, except for Juanda, who I believe is ~33.

Even more...

1997: Best All Around Player, World Poker Finals.
1998: WSOP Pot Limit Hold'em at age 23. First WSOP event ever played.
1999: United States Poker Champion.
1997-1999: 12 major tournament wins, more than any other player.
2000: Played exclusively live action in Las Vegas at the Bellagio.
2001: 11th in the main event at the WSOP.
2001: Legends of Poker 7-card stud, 1st
2002: Best All around Player at the L.A.P.C.
2002: Legends of Poker 2002 Event # 5 7- Card Stud, 1st
2002: Legends of Poker 2002 Event # Omaha Hi/Lo, 1st
2002: Legends of Poker 2002 Event # Omaha Hi/Lo split, 2nd
2002: Legends of Poker 2002 Event # No Limit Holdem, 1st
2002: Hall of Fame Poker Classic, Limit Holdem, 1st
2002: Four Queens Poker Classic, Limit Holdem, 2nd
2002: World Series of Poker, Limit Hold 'em Shootout, 6th
2004: Orleans Open, No-Limit Hold'em Championship, 6th
2004: Championship Poker at the Plaza, No-Limit Hold'em, 1st
2004: Party Poker Million III, Limit Hold'em Championship Final Day, 2nd
2004: Caribbean Adventure, No-Limit Hold'em, 3rd
2003: World Series of Poker, S.H.O.E, 1st

WSOP 2004
Event #2, $2,000 No-Limit Hold 'Em, 43rd, $4,440
Event #7, $1,000 No-Limit Hold 'Em w/ Rebuys, 3rd, $100,940
Event #11, $2,500 Limit Hold 'Em, 7th, $21,800
Event #15, $2,000 Limit Hold 'Em, 1st, $169,100
Event #18, $1,500 No-Limit Hold 'Em, 9th, $5,000
Event #31, $5,000 Pot-Limit Omaha w/ Rebuys, 8th, $45,000


Please let us know when YOU feel he is great, so the rest of us can too.

[amoeba]

I don't even know what smoothcall is arguing here. Is he arguing the call was wrong or is he arguing that Dan N is not a good player?

Or is he arguing that non of the pro players on tv is a good player and its all marketing and smoothcall is the best?

I mean, it seems like you enjoy being forum antagonist.

[Smoothcall]

All of those are possible.

[Vince Lepore]

I've been following this discussion and it seems to have degenerated into a discussion of DN's skills. The question was whether or not this was an easy call. Are you guys saying this was an easy call for a great player? A bad call for a good/poor player? One thing that must also be considered is whether or not a good/poor player would even make this raise.

Vince

[amoeba]

whether a player would steal on the button does not say anything about how good they are.

stealing is a weapon that should be employed just like any other weapon.

Obviously, this hand was an illustration on Dan N's read on Annie Duke. If the reraise came from somebody else, he probably would have laid it down.

For a scenario with such limited choices as call or fold ( i don't think rereraise is an option but what do I know), it all comes down to dan's read of annie.

Its not that Dan N plays 75s so well but rather he had a read on annie right from the start and he was correct in his read.

[amoeba]

I think this whole discussion is kind of pointless.

The reason the hand was in the article is because its not something in the norm.

The article becomes much less interesting if its yet another textbook situation.

It was just there to illustrate his thought process and his read.

Its like an article about somebody laying down KK preflop because he just knew somebody else had AA. and he goes in to detail about why he believed somebody else had AA, etc etc....

The preflop call really can't be debated as it was based on a read. What can be debated is the flop raise.

[felson]

Amoeba: "The preflop call really can't be debated as it was based on a read."

Daniel: "Anytime I can get 2-1 pot odds, implied odds, and position with a suited connector, you can count me in!"

Even though Daniel had a read, sounds like he would play on even without it. Also, Daniel would be happy to take up his hand against AA in this spot ("Normally with a hand like that, I'd be hoping my opponent had two aces").

[amoeba]

hmm I stand corrected then.

Although I wonder how much of that is him attempting humor and how much is for real.

I guess the AA comment means he would rather be a bigger dog and have more implied odds rather than being 2:1 and having less implied odds.

[lastchance]

Yup, exactly. Suited Connectors = Implied odds, so he wants to be up against AA, which would pay him off.

I think this play is highly subjective. You can fold here, you can call, hell, you can even reraise if you think Annie will lay her hand down. I think here, the standard play is to fold, but I am pretty sure that Dan N is not losing a lot of equity by calling.

[Smoothcall]

I don't know how to compare unless you give me resume's of other known great players to compare. You know Daniel plays almost every single event in these major tournies. In 7 years he better have something to show. What's missing from the resume is him going flat broke and into debt in the middle somewhere. And to say its your girlfriends fault is silly. I'm sure it didn't help matters but if your great how could you lose ALL that money. You might hurt your hourly rate or make a bone head play in a tournament here or there but you still should be able to keep building your bankroll not lose hundred's of thousands of dollars. Again not bashing but needs to be taken into account if we're gonna truely judge greatness.

[lastchance]

People get better at Poker. We were all fish once. We all got better, and a lot better. All the greats used to suck too, y'know.

[Smoothcall]

Well that may or may not be the case only time will tell. And i wish him well he's a pretty nice guy. Although a bit overly cocky at the tables, but most of those guys are anyway. Just saying lets not put him in cooperstown just yet.

[Daliman]

Name me a great player who didn't start with a ton of $$$, and 99% of the time he has gotten broke at LEAST once. Daniel has always been in action.

In poker, getting broke is not a sin. It's virtually a certainty. Coming back is what is not certain.

[Iconoclastic]

I woulda done the same thing. Then again I consider myself to be a pretty good low card player so...

[Smoothcall]

Only stayed in action cause he got into serious debt with his friends which i will let remain nameless. Some do cause they have big ego's and think there better than they are and go on top deck. but bad players go broke too that's a certainty too. And not all great players go broke some h ave some have't. That is plain silly statemnt that allo do. You have not he's great yet. I guess we won't know til time tells. Again not saying he'snot but i have seen muchbetter resumee's from a few you might not even hear of. If you want to show he's good ok great to me is a little higher criteria.

[srblan]

If he doesn't flop anything (including a draw), he can throw the hand away if he doesn't feel like he'll be able to outplay his opponent. If he flops big, he's got a shot at winning a big pot by coming over the top when the preflop raiser leads out on the flop.

[srblan]

Drinking was the only thing I ever heard mentioned publicly...

[srblan]

The ability to make a play here with a straight draw relies heavily on an accurate read of your opponent. Any monkey can push in all of his chips and hope that his hand hits, but in order to make this play a good one, you have to have a good read on your opponent, and you have to have enough heart to risk a lot of your chips to move your opponent off of their hand.

[srblan]

I believe that Doyle made a very similar comment about suited connectors in Super System, indicating that he'd generally call a raise with them because a raise usually indicates big cards. If he flops big, he's likely to double through someone with aces because they will be hard to get away from with a seemingly innocuous flop.

The thing about suited connectors is that they are very straightforward to play against big cards. You either hit them or you don't. They have little to no implied odds from you because you have little to no hand...

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Only stayed in action cause he got into serious debt with his friends which i will let remain nameless. Some do cause they have big ego's and think there better than they are and go on top deck. but bad players go broke too that's a certainty too. And not all great players go broke some h ave some have't. That is plain silly statemnt that allo do. You have not he's great yet. I guess we won't know til time tells. Again not saying he'snot but i have seen muchbetter resumee's from a few you might not even hear of. If you want to show he's good ok great to me is a little higher criteria.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, name me some long-time pros who never got broke that didn't start with lots of money. I'll give you a head start- David Sklansky.

You know what, just forget it. Return to under your bridge. Negreanu is a flash in the pan.

[Smoothcall]

How about Chip Reece. He came to vegas as a colege student with a small amount of money and never looked back he said this on t.v. once.

You sound like it upsets you if a great player doesn't go broke. maybe you went broke and want to still think your a great player. I'll go under my bridge when you get back in your hole

[riverboatking]

vince, you are a sad little pathetic man.
yes thats right i called you vince.
you sad little pathetic man who needs to create multiple accounts so you can have at least one person to agree with you.
and yeah yeah i know, go ahead put me on your ignore list. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Smoothcall]

lol get a life i'm ready to put you on MY ignore list.

[Daliman]

Ok, that's 2...(maybe, Reese never did say if he ever got broke)

[Smoothcall]

chau chiang. started in smal limit 10-20 20-40 at the mirage now plays 1500-300k with jen.h chip,doyle,howard. he isnow a millionaire and the only one in the big game that made his fortune through poker alone.