Good starting hands in trouble, need review/critique [Archive]

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DrBob

11-01-2004, 06:41 PM

This was a successful weekend, overall, but here are several I think I might have done better on. No special reads here, the table was quite loose/passive.

#1: When MP1 bet the river, I didn't consider that he might have been planning a turn checkraise. How bad was my river raise?

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (5.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB
Main Pot: 9.20 BB, between MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by MP1 (9.20 BB).

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Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed)

#2: On this one, I 3-bet the flop to lock players in in case I hit my set. I was pretty sure nearly all would stay in, although the cap frankly wasn't anticipated. Anyway, comments on this tactic (on this hand) would be appreciated.

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (22 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

My passivity on the turn/river was based on a read of Button as very passive. Too passive? Should have folded? Call down just right??

Turn: (11 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button raises, SB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (19 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 22 BB
Main Pot: 22 BB, between Hero, MP3 and Button. > Pot won by Button (22 BB).

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Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed)

#3 This pretty routine?

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
Main Pot: 8.50 BB, between MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by MP1 (8.50 BB).

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Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed)

#4: I'm just confused about how to play this one. My flop play was probably pretty bad; there are no overcards to drive out with the raise so it's problematical, and I should maybe give it up after the 3-bet. I think the turn/river is probably okay, but aren't really sure.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (9 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (14.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB
Main Pot: 17.50 BB, between SB, Hero and CO. > Pot won by CO (17.50 BB).

meep_42

11-01-2004, 06:52 PM

1. Fine.
2. Call pf, don't 3-bet with a small pair.
3. Check the turn, you have no hand yet and only 1 card to improve. River - check/fold
4. I don't think you have the equity to raise this on the flop, and I don't think you're in good position to buy the button for a free card here. You have odds to call 1 but aren't closing the action. I'm ok with a call or fold here, i'd probably call. Bet the river.

-d

davelin

11-01-2004, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Fine.
2. Call pf, don't 3-bet with a small pair.
3. Check the turn, you have no hand yet and only 1 card to improve. River - check/fold
4. I don't think you have the equity to raise this on the flop, and I don't think you're in good position to buy the button for a free card here. You have odds to call 1 but aren't closing the action. I'm ok with a call or fold here, i'd probably call. Bet the river.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree except I like the flop raise. No other aggression pre-flop so there was a decent possibility of buying the button/free card play.

DrBob

11-01-2004, 07:13 PM

Thanks for the input. On #2, I think 3-betting a pair with a large field is not an inherently bad strategy. The implied odds are acceptable if you get 6 callers, and the benefit is that by building the pot you create huge implied odds if your set hits -- people are locked in now. But if you disagree, I'd like to know why.

On the last one, why bet the river with CO so active?

detruncate

11-01-2004, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the input. On #2, I think 3-betting a pair with a large field is not an inherently bad strategy. The implied odds are acceptable if you get 6 callers, and the benefit is that by building the pot you create huge implied odds if your set hits -- people are locked in now. But if you disagree, I'd like to know why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably don't need to worry too much about locking people into the hand. Unskillful player tend to call too often rather than the opposite. Your ideal game conditions for playing pocket pairs are loose/passive pf and loose/aggressive post flop. If the table was tight/passive post flop or had a tendency to fold way too much unless the pot was big you might be more inclined to go for the 3-bet... but it seems like a bit of a stretch trying to find proper conditions to justify it.

The problem is that you'll often not significantly improve your overall implied odds. You have to make up the pf deficit you're building with each bet, and the post-flop benefits are debatable. In this example, you're looking at 4 opponents, so you effectively lose 3.5 SB with each bet you put in pf after the field dropped to 5-handed (or 2.5SB/bet if everyone had called). You also open yourself up to a cap. Each bet makes it significantly harder to even break even. I wouldn't put in any more bets than necessary unless it ends up 7 or 8 handed.

davelin

11-01-2004, 07:52 PM

DrBob

11-01-2004, 08:28 PM

Thanks, both of you, for the additional comments re flop raise w 77. Much appreciated.

Bob