Coping with a checkraise

[StellarWind]

Party 2/4.

Hero raises from CO with AKo and only BB calls. BB seems like a TAG but you don't know very much about him.

Flop is Q62 rainbow. BB checks, Hero bets (any objections?), and BB checkraises.

7.5 SB. What do you do now? What is your plan?

[Fat Nicky]

This is standard, but i'll call the flop raise and fold the turn unimproved. If I spike an A or K on the turn, i'm raising any bet from BB.

[MarkD]

I have been 3-betting and then checking the turn if they check to me, but lately my opponents in the 15 game have been doing a lot of stop and go's when I 3-bet and then the pot is big enough on the turn for me to call there as well so my "free-card play" just got really expensive really fast.

I would now just smooth call and then re-evaluate on the turn based on my number of outs assuming that all 6 of my overcars are good.

[J.R.]

"If I spike an A or K on the turn, i'm raising any bet from BB."

I usually wait for the river unless a turn call sets off bells, as river raises tend to get 1) paid off much more frequently than turn raises, especially after odd turn calls (although maybe not here if the BB is a decent card reader- but if BB is a decent card reader he should be able to get away to the turn raise with a just Q, so you get one extra bet when he either leads the river or check-calls the river), and 2) get 3-bet less.

[bdk3clash]

Hmm. My default play against a non-donk is to call the flop raise and fold the turn unimproved.

If I 3-bet the flop (and I do sometimes) I'd sure as hell bet the turn in position. If I got checkraised again I'd fold the turn unimproved. I'd check behind on the river unimproved. If I got stop-and-goed (stop-and-gone? stop-and-went?) on the river I guess I'd have to play poker.

[J.R.]

The TAG check-raise from the blinds on a single broadway card flop v a steal may be a re-steal, so the flop 3-bet (depending on their tenciousness and the frequency with which they check-riase here) is a viable option, and unlike the more aggro bigger games, is unlikely to get played back at. The problem is whether you can win it with a turn bet or should take your free card when called on the flop, but there are opponents (much more common in 6-max games) against whom the flop 3-bet/turn follow thru line is right, and there are people who will fold to the flop 3-bet /images/graemlins/shocked.gif (although the "folders" aren't likely a common opponent in 2-4, most won't play back at your flop 3-bet, so one more sb gets you a river look most often in this spot).

[MarkD]

But if you 3-bet the flop and bet the turn and then get check raised again I think you are forced to call that bet based on pot odds. I'd have to actually count to figure that out, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to call.

I often did follow through with the turn bet but most of the time my opponent would fold on the flop after I 3-bet him, or he would continue to show down so I took the free turn card.

My default line has changed though, but it's tough because in the 15 game you get check raised all the time on flops like these as they put you on AK and play accordingly.

[ QUOTE ]
If I got stop-and-goed (stop-and-gone? stop-and-went?) on the river I guess I'd have to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've read this 10 times and still dont' know what you are talking about. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
The TAG check-raise from the blinds on a single broadway card flop v a steal may be a re-steal, so the flop 3-bet (depending on their tenciousness and the frequency with which they check-riase here) is a viable option, and unlike the more aggro bigger games, is unlikely to get played back at. The problem is whether you can win it with a turn bet or should take your free card when called on the flop, but there are opponents (much more common in 6-max games) agianst whom the flop 3-bet/turn follow thru line is right, and there are people who will fold to the 3-bet (although the "folders" aren't likely a common opponent in 2-4, most won't play back at your flop 3-bet, so one more sb gets you a river look most often in this spot).


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If anyone is reading this paragraph and thinks, "that sounds really complicated," it's because this situation is very complicated. The check-raise resteal on the flop is a not-uncommon play and a lot of opponents will say "[censored] that" after you 3-bet them and tehy will call you down. If they hit a pair they aren't afraid to check raise you again on the turn or river.

This is a complicated spot. My "default" play in this spot seems to change every month.

[bdk3clash]

I meant if I 3-bet the flop with AK unimproved, bet the turn unimproved and got called, and then was bet into on the river and still had nut no-pair, I'd call or fold or raise, depending on, uh, everything.

Wow, that really is a lot of words to say nothing.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant if I 3-bet the flop with AK unimproved, bet the turn unimproved and got called, and then was bet into on the river and still had nut no-pair, I'd call or fold or raise, depending on, uh, everything.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a lot of ammunition.

I think I might take a big position on the river by guessing that my 2/4 opponent has a hand ...

I understand that someday I could play in games where that type of thinking was a leak.

[bdk3clash]

Mostly fold, sometimes call, rarely raise. Like, never.

[Jonny Melon]

My default (2/4) play is to 3-bet the flop and check through the turn. But this, unfortunately, commits me to calling the river unimproved against most opponents, as many opponents will bluff into you if the river is a blank, as you've announced unimproved overcards with the turn check. The other con of the flop 3-bet is that it pot commits you to calling the turn if a blank hits and you are bet into, as you now have odds (6.25:1) to see the river. Whereas if I had just called the flop, I wouldn't have odds, and could shrug and fold. So am I jacking the pot incorrectly here?

Occasionally I'll 3-bet the flop and bet the turn if checked to, then check behind on the river, but that backfires as often as it works.

Oh, hell, I screw this situation up so much, I don't know what to think.... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

EDIT: Miswrote odds earlier.

[StellarWind]

My 3-bet took it down to my surprise.

My general intention was to take the free card. I don't see too many checkraises at this level without at least a pair.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
My 3-bet took it down to my surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be surprised. This 3-bet takes the pot a surprising amount. (I am talking about the 5 and 15 games at party. I never made thie play at the 2 game as I didn't know about it.)

The thing is, it has to work a lot because it can be an expensive play.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
My 3-bet took it down to my surprise.

My general intention was to take the free card. I don't see too many checkraises at this level without at least a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the others that it is generally better to follow through with a turn bet in spots where you'd have to at least consider calling a river bet (which you should at least *consider* in a blind stealing situation with the nut ace high). There are definitely opponents who will take a card off with something like 76s if you 3-bet but fold if you bet the turn, particularly if you *haven't* always been betting the turn in these spots. There's also some chance that your opponent has a gutshot with 54, and a bet will probably induce him to fold incorrectly.

The times to check behind are when:

1) You think you might get check-raised by a hand that you beat or have outs against. You should generally be wary of betting the turn, for example, if the top or middle card on the board pairs.

2) You think you give up almost nothing by throwing your hand away on the river, such as when you're 3-betting with a pure draw or your opponent is straightforward.

Some of these opponents can be sophisicated, btw. They recognize that a flop like this one presents a good stealing opportunity since a hand like AJ or 88 may throw itself away immediately, which isn't the case on say a 962 flop.

[Alexthegreat]

A 3-bet here is my default play...It seems like it's the only way to maintain control of the hand, and it usually allows you to showdown for just one BB.....(either on the turn for a river check behind, or calling the river after a turn check behind)

Some 2/4 players are even weak enough to check both big streets with their top pair after you preflop raised and 3-bet the flop.....For this reason alone I make the 3-bet everytime.....

A more complicated position that I get into lots of trouble in is AK when you are out of position against a cold caller and a raggedy flop......What to do then??

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
My general intention was to take the free card. I don't see too many checkraises at this level without at least a pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would think the check-raise re-steal at this level would be fairly rare, too, but I havn't really thought about until now. Maybe I should have been....

How often would people say they see this move at 2/4?

Would it be safe to assume (until you see evidence of tricky play that indicates otherwise) that the average 2/4 player would not try a check-raise re-steal?

gm

[Yerma]

Hi Mark...if you're having a problem 3-betting in this spot, then I suggest that you can occasionally just call right down without improvement after getting c/r'd on the flop. Mask it by slowplaying your top pair (those times you flop it) to the turn or river.

If you were worried about getting c/r'd and stop+go'd with nothing...mixing in this line of play will foul their plans up very well...

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
A 3-bet here is my default play...It seems like it's the only way to maintain control of the hand, and it usually allows you to showdown for just one BB.....(either on the turn for a river check behind, or calling the river after a turn check behind)

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to win every hand, and I think the best "default" play is probably to call the flop and fold the river if you don't improve. That is, you should have some reason for 3-betting the flop. It doesn't need to be a great reason, since I don't think 3-betting is too far behind call/fold in terms of expectation, so something like...

- You've been stealing the blinds a lot and you think your opponent has noticed;
- Your opponent is capable of laying down a hand like second pair;
- You've been showing down a lot of winners. (*)

...should suffice.

To a certain extent - moreso as you move up limits - it also depends how you play your other hands. I tend to slowplay a little bit more often in heads up situations than a lot of 2+2ers, and that makes it a little harder for me to 3-bet here. OTOH, I'll sometimes make weird plays like just calling down the whole way, or raising a scare card on the turn.

** I've become convinced recently that this is pretty important, even in online games. Opponents aren't all that attentive to the fact that you might be playing tight, but they do seem to notice when you're showing down a lot of winning hands.

[MarkD]

I'm glad to see you put this line in print as I've been using it on and off lately. I kind of feel like a wuss just calling down though.

I know they often bet the flop and after I call they check the turn and fold to a bet.