A couple more Newb Questions

[Cleveland Guy]

As I have learned everything from poker either on these forums, or trial and error on the tables, I thought I would ask a couple of probably ovbious questions here. Thanks for the time, as I am enjoying this game a lot, and really starting to do very well at it.

Are these all auto mucks?

1. 2 Pair in your hands pre flop? Like TT66

1a. Does it change at all if they are double suited? or connected? or should they be both? Like JJTT double suited might be playable?

2. Is 3 of a kind in your hand an auto - muck? 999x? What can I really be hoping for? Even AAAx seems like a loser in this game

3. Do you have best odds against pre-flop aggression with hands that can make nice wraps? I seem to to best when I defend a pot raise pre-flop with a hand like 6789. I tend to either really hit, like a 56x or 672, or really miss.

Thanks for your help, just trying to make my game better.

[bugstud]

2 pair hands are tricky...everyone has a different opinion on how to play them. Your JJTT example is definately playable...I've been known to limpreraise with 4422 before. Check the archive for that flame war /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Only 3 of a kind I don't fold is AAAx, and that's only if A) people let me steal postflop and B) people respect me. Therefore, I fold all trips on party.

4 connected cards can be a monster postflop, yes, but it's not always that simple. You'll get drawn or redrawn a lot unless people are calling allins with overpairs and the like.

[Yads]

Double pairs can be very playable, if
a. They're high
b. Double suited with a King or Ace
c. connected

I would say a hand would have to satisfy at least 2 of the above conditions to make it playable. Also completing from the SB with a hand like QQTT might not be a bad idea, if you can hit one of your sets.

[Acesover8s]

1) 2 pair hands are auto plays not automucks, I will play any 2 pair hand from any position, usually opening for a raise, they are also a good reraise hand against a loose raiser. They are my favorite hands to play against AAxx. You don't need very large stacks to make it worthwhile to break him as you are twice as likely to flop a set.

I have a favorite hand from a while ago where I took a 2 pair hand against KK. We flopped 3 sets between the 2 of us and the large stacks and his slowplay let to a beautiful 2 outer.

As bugstud has stated, the 2244 debate was an interesting one, and I still stand by what I said then.

2) I fold all trips except AAA and ususally I fold that one too.

3) As has been stated here before the best hands to break aces (which are the most common preflop aggression hands) are 4 in a row type hands or two pair type hands. The worst are any hand containing an ace. If you are positive your opponent has aces, and will go broke with them, and the stacks are decent size, there is no hand outside of trips I would throw away.

[Cleveland Guy]

Thanks for the advice.

Just curious- is something like AAAQ - where you are suited playable, just because you could hit the nut straight and nut flush as well as hitting the case A?

[Acesover8s]

I would generally only play AAAxs if I could get all-in or mostly all in preflop. Drawing to hit only a flush or a flopped straight or your case ace is not very good in PLO.

[blinklate]

1) low two pair hands are easy mucks. as acesover8 points out, he flopped two sets and got very lucky to win the pot. Multiway they are bad hands since they will rarely make the nuts. If one of the pairs is above ten, this is a different story. You then have a decent chance of flopping the top set, which is the most playable of the three sets. Also this way, if you flop a boat, then you can get a person to draw nearly dead if the flop comes J 5 5 and you have pocket jacks to their AA53.

2) Three of a kind is an automuck, AAAx is playable only under very slim conditions. Omaha is one of the only games where more cards in your hand can hurt you.

3) Four straights are definetly hands to crack aces with. If you are heads up on the flop, then just call if you flop two pair. You know he will go all in with aces, so you wait till the turn to push to make sure that the third card on the board doesnt pair. If he will go all in at any time regardless of what falls, you should gain as much information about the final board as you can. If the third card pairs, then you can easily drop or check your two pair.

[svenski]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />

3) As has been stated here before the best hands to break aces (which are the most common preflop aggression hands) are 4 in a row type hands or two pair type hands. The worst are any hand containing an ace. If you are positive your opponent has aces, and will go broke with them, and the stacks are decent size, there is no hand outside of trips I would throw away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still a learning newbie in PLO but a very passionate one. A question about the third point. Why is an suited ace a sucha bad holding when cracking aces? As I see it you actually decimate the probability for the aces to hit a set plus that you have a suit covered. Just thought you could elaborate a bit.

[bugstud]

compare A876 to 8675...you're goin to win with two pair, boats, and straights. Adding another connecting card greatly increases those odds, compared to having an essentially dead cards.

[svenski]

Ok, that makes sense. What if you holding is something like AJJT ds for instance. Is this a good hand against aces? I have come to the understanding that how you handle aces and hands busting aces have a big effect on your bankroll and the deviation of it as well.

[sahaguje]

[ QUOTE ]
1) low two pair hands are easy mucks. as acesover8 points out, he flopped two sets and got very lucky to win the pot. Multiway they are bad hands since they will rarely make the nuts. If one of the pairs is above ten, this is a different story. You then have a decent chance of flopping the top set, which is the most playable of the three sets.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people took way too far the idea that you should not build a second-best hand. I dont see any table where I would fold any two pair (except maybe 3322 and 2244), unless it is reraised preflop AND the stacks are low. Unless you dont have a clue about PLO and the way to play the flop, middle sets and bottom sets are excellent hands. You dont have to make the nuts everytime at PLO, unless you play on really loose tables. If people play properly, there should rarely be more than 4-5 players on the flop, and in these situations middle sets are monsters.
That being said, it all depends of your level : if you are a beginner at PLO and play on loose tables, you should avoid playing low 2 pair hands. But you wont make much money if you keep mucking them as you become stronger and the tables get tigher. So if you want to become a good PLO player, you should learn to play these hands ; they can be very profitable, and if you know how to play, they wont cost you a lot of money, even when you make a second best hand.

See you

sahaguje