Made to feel the fool

[pablopicasso]

Here's the sitch:

1 table SnG no limit hold'em, 6 players left, blinds are $100/200, I am in the big blind.

Two players limp in, small blind raises all-in to $265. I have 62o but figure $65 more is worth the call, as do the other two limpers.

Flop comes 9-5-3 rainbow.

My thinking is: With all these players in the hand, I am going to lose, so bluff and go heads up with the small blind, which I do with a bet of $400. Sure enough the two limpers fold leaving me up against the small blind who has a Q8o.

Turn is a 10 and River is a K, so small blind wins the hand.

Then I start getting grief from the limpers who think I should have gotten out of the way so one of them could stick around and eliminate the small blind with river KK.

I know 62o is weak, but odds are just as good to pair one or two of my cards as they are the small blind's, right?

Did I deserve the grief I got?

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I start getting grief from the limpers who think I should have gotten out of the way so one of them could stick around and eliminate the small blind with river KK.

I know 62o is weak, but odds are just as good to pair one or two of my cards as they are the small blind's, right?

Did I deserve the grief I got?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, yes you did. and ill disagree with anyone who says otherwise.

heres why, and prolly a bit more grief.

the side pot was dry. by pushing off the others you MUST win the hand to show a positive outcome.

62o is a really poor hand like you said. you had 6 high, with an inside straight draw (4 outs) and a pairing of the 6 or 2 (6 mor outs total).

however you MUST discount the pairing outs, what if he has paired the 5 or 3, that drops 3 outs, and if he paired the 9 there goes another 3 outs. any pocket pair does the same.

your odds off winning the hand are best if you hit your inside straight draw, which is ~4:1 over the next two cards.

he may still beat you.

and he doesnt need to pair or aything if he has a card higher than yours.

by checking and folding to any bet, you give yourself infinite odds to hit your cards, and if you dont you maximise the chance to win by moving one step closer to the money.

if the berrating stops you doing this in the future, more the better. this was a really really bad play on every single front. its one of the few things people can do to frustrate me in a game.
___________________________

fwiw, in future making this move if there is a side pot, ie yopur bluff has the effect of increasing your stack instantly, and the potential to pick up the whole pot then this is perfectly fine, even thinking play.

as somone is all in, everyone 'knows' that it cant be bluffed. but when there is a side pot it can be.

note, im not sure if this +CEV move translates dirrectly into +$EV but in most cases it wont be hugely negative (the bubble and beyond is pretty much where id guess it could be -$EV)

Phill

[Bremen]

Don't listen to them. By pushing them off you increase your chances to win the whole pot. Yes they could have eliminated the SB, but with 6 players left that is not quite as important. Of course I'd be more leary of one of the other limpers having a hand and playing back at you.

[DVC Calif]

You deserved the grief.

It is common practice to check it down to ensure that someone eliminates the short stack. It is worth much more to you to advance position and eliminate a player, than to bluff at that pot. By making the other players fold, and not winning the hand, you effectively allowed the short stack to quadruple up with nothing more than high card.

Of course, if you had a made hand, then by all means, play it. But by making a big bet, you are telling the other players that you have the short stack covered and can knock him out. That was not the case with your 6 2 o, which needed runner-runner for a miracle.

[captZEEbo1]

terrible, terrible play. I see people bluff or semi-bluff a dry side pot all the time. You're supposed to check it down, unless you have a made hand. When you bet, you signal to the other guys, alright I can beat the guy allin, but I don't want to lose to a 4 outer from one of you guys.

There is a good article written about this by Daniel Negreanu that can be found here:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/writers/view/name/Daniel_Negreanu
entitled "The Dry Side Pot Bluff"

It's one thing if there are EXTRA chips to be won. But let's say you bet, and get someone to fold with A hi, or a made pair, you have a very small chance to win. A hi or a made pair can STILL beat the guy that is allin. Each time someone gets knocked out, that means you are closer to getting knocked out.

Another reason this bluff is bad: (assuming everyone is using optimal strategy), if nobody calls your bluff, you would have been able to see the next card for free anyways.

[unfrgvn]

I have to disagree with the posters who are saying this is a terrible play. I have to admit it's not a play I make very often, but look at it this way. There's T1065 in the pot. There are 6 players left so you are going to need chips, more than likely. If you make this bet and the turn comes a K and the river a 6, you look like a genious. If you had checked the flop, the guy with Kx would have won the pot that you are now raking. If it was on the bubble then I would agree with checking it down.

There was a variation on this play that was discussed at length, I think in the MTT forum. That is, with 2 limpers and the small blind all in for only a little bit more than the BB, your move in the BB is to push instead of calling the small raise. It's the same theory that made you bet the flop, only you don't give the limpers a chance to catch.

To the poster with the Daniel N link, read the Dry Side pot bluff part II. I think his answer to the first question applies here.

[DVC Calif]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree with the posters who are saying this is a terrible play. ...To the poster with the Daniel N link, read the Dry Side pot bluff part II. I think his answer to the first question applies here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daniel's first scenario had to do with the raiser protecting his hand (made pair QQ) against possible Ax or smaller PP catching on the turn/river. OP did not have a made hand and allowed the short stack to profit. (BTW -I think if OP really only wanted to be heads up with the all-in, he should have pushed PF and saved the limpers the additional $65.00 raise.)

OP's sitiation is actually closer to No. 3 on the list. No pair, no real draw. Just “Nanny nanny boo boo, I bluffed you!”

The key theory in betting the dry side pot is whether or not your hand has a legitimate shot at beating the all-in player. 62o was not a legitimate hand.

[lorinda]

If you have a hand that could legitimately win this pot without improving then the play is fine (Although not to my taste). I'm talking AJ or something similar.

However here, you are not only behind, but you might STILL be behind if you hit a 6 or 2, if you hit your gutshot, you want the other guy in the pot to pay you.

You have now also created a sidepot. The guy now can take a legitimate shot at you to steal your chips that he probably wouldn't take before.

You seem to think the grief was for the call preflop, that call is fine, but why take a stab at a 0 point pot?

There is good EV in having people knocked out, make sure they have a chance at being knocked out.


Lori

[Jason Strasser]

Everyone who says 'never bluff into a dryside pot' is probably wrong. First of all, you all need to consider the situation.

General thoughts, not connected to this hand: What if this SNG is a qualifier for an event and only one person gets paid (second place gets nothing)? The EV gained by having someone else bust an opponent is negligible.

What about situations where you'd like to keep around the small stack. I have played with EXTREMELY tight mid-size stacks, and purposely bluffed them out of dryside pots to preserve the small stack so I could continue stealing their blinds. Plus, there's always a chance that my 62o (or other crap hand) could find a way to win the pot.

I really am not impressed by people who say "the correct thing to do is... yadda yadda yadda." Think a little bit.

Just responding to a post saying "you should NEVER bluff a blindside pot, it is terrible" is bad advice. Because there are times when bluffing at a blindside pot is absolutely correct.

In this situation, however, I think it is not worth bluffing because there is just not enough money in the pot, and in my view there is too much risk for too little reward. Best case scenario is that everyone folds, and now you can pray your 62o holds up? That's no fun. What if your flop bet gets called and you brick the turn, then what? You should have a plan when you decide to bet in this spot, and I doubt you really formulated a plan when you decided to lead out here. It's a bad move.

That is why I wouldn't bluff here, not because of some hidden conduct that you should never bluff in a dryside pot.

-Jason

[ron dogg]

I like the idea, I don't like the cards. If you had any paint at all i'd love the move. But even if you don't its not terrible to get a free card or 2 to bust someone.

[poboy]

In this situation you deserved all the grief you got and then some. With no side pot there is no reason to force the others out. You can't honestly believe that your 6-2 is going to be good at showdown without catching a miracle card. Not to mention if you do catch your miracle card wouldn't it be better if there were people still in the hand to pay you off? Now not only is the short stack still in the game, he has some chips to play with again. As for Strassa's arguments, of course there is never a 100% correct way to play all the time. In some situations like the one's he pointed out it could be correct to bluff. However I think the overwhelming majority of the time the correct play would be to check it down. JMO

[BigHobo]

I don't think you deserve the grief you got from the other players since I don't think there is any reason why you need to cooperate to eliminate the all in. With 6 players left the value gained by eliminating one isn't significant, and may even be negative depending on who ends up knocking him out and what your chip stack is.

That aside, I think it was a horrible play. Your 62o had very little chance of winning even against the all in heads up and you take a huge risk that someone calls your bet and end up risking $665 (instead of $265) with 62o and a flop that missed you. Unless you are 100% certain that both of the limpers will fold it just doesn't make any sense to me.