Who's right?

In Seven Card Stud For Advanced Players it says that a pair of jacks or tens on third street should be thrown away if there are several overcards still to act behind them. In Doyle Brunson's Super/System, Chip Reese, who wrote the section on seven card stud, says "If you have a smaller premium pair, and there are two or more upcards higher than your premium pair, try to just call and see what developes." In general who's advice do you think is right?

It depends -


What's your kicker? Are your cards live? Are their cards live?

Are the players with the high cards behind you playing loose?


In my opinion - there's alot of info that needs to be filtered before you can decide whether you shoul fold, call or raise.

Your Kicker is lower than the cards behind you, the higher upcards behind you unduplicated, and your cards are all live. And lets say that you don't know the other players too well yet or how they play their hands.

What's your kicker?

Your Kicker is lower than the cards behind you


Are your cards live?

your cards are all live


Are their cards live?

the higher upcards behind you unduplicated


Are the players with the high cards behind you playing loose?

you don't know the other players too well yet or how they play their hands


I would tend to agree with the Super System in this case ..

Try to just call and see what develops.

what will develop is that you will get raised most times and get to play a decent sized pot not knowing what to do.

one other factor that you are not taking into account is how big the pot might be and how the hand will be played. In most games you will get raised and will be playing a tricky hand. Your opponent may only have a three flush or three high cards, but you will have a difficult time figuring his hand.


If you anticipate a big pot, because of the players, sometimes you can take one card off and hope to improve, but in most situations you can fold. In a low limit game I would be much more likely to fold because of the ante structure.


pat

I'm sure that Ray Zee has alot more insight into this than I have - but I'd like to know where I'm going wrong in my thinking about this. These kind of hands come up alot ..


Let's say that this is a seven player $15/$30 game with a $2 ante and a $5 bring in. There's $19 in the pot ..


At this point I'm just guessing

You get raised three out of four times.


One time the raiser has a higher pair or is rolled up.

(you should fold)


One time the raiser has a 3 flush, 3 high cards to a straight or a small hidden pair.

(you should call)


One time the raiser has nothing but the high card showing.

(you should raise)


So .. Isn't the hand worth the $5 call ?

SCSFAP was written for the 15/30 limit


Be more inclined to call if those High cards are held by weaker predictable opponents.


John..

Dear PhilleyJoe,

If the players who have the overcards to your under premium pair

are loose-agressive,fold your pair;if none of the players are

loose-agressive,call;if one is a loose-agressive player,but another

player also have an overcard to your pair and calls the agressive

better,assume he has a pair of that overcard. In this case,fold.

If you are playing in a high-medium limit game with a high ante,

and your pair and side-card are completely live,it's more of a calling hand in multi-way action unless you have to call two

raises on 3rd. St.


Larry"Sitting Bull"Duplessis

Dear PhillyJoe,

The problem is that you will usually compound your error on

future streets if you improve to two pair,a3-straight,or a 3-flush. Stringing along with these "improved hands" will cost you

a lot of money in the long run.


Larry"Sitting Bull"Duplessis

I believe Zee hit the nail on the head. It also depends on the table (i.e the players, the stakes, the position). The game is complicated enough that there are few "automatics". I might play the medium pair in this instance if I think I can out play the rest fo the field or narrow the field.