Simple Omaha HL Starting Hand Question

This is from a Lee Munzer post yesterday on RGP. Some of the responses surprised me.


Let's say you are in a very passive and loose game with an average of six or seven players taking the flop and very little raising. You are dealt Ad-Qd-8d-8s UTG. Is this playable and if so (or not) by how much?


Is the above hand playable on the button after five limpers?


Regards


Rick

I don't like this hand at all. I wouldn't even play it on the button after 5 limpers, although it can't be that wrong if the players are really bad.


A8 is a horrible low, adds almost nothing to the hand


The eights don't add much either, you'll either be splitting with a low losing to higher full houses, straights or flushes. Flopping trip eights leaves you with very little betting power.


AQ gives you a nut straight possibility, but it will almost never be worth drawing to, you just have to hope for a KJT rainbow flop.


The suited ace is nice, but you have a third spade, so it really isn't that great.

I would dump it without a second thought, Rick. Even on the button with a big field. I want to go to war with hands that have multiple chances. In this case, you pretty much need to make a diamond flush to win the high end, barring a miracle flop with some 8's in it. And your 3 diamonds even reduce that chance further. In fact, I have almost made it a personal rule not to play a hand that contains an eight, never mind two of them. As you know, middle sets are death in O/8.


Just my opinion. In a loose, passive game (such as I see a lot) there will be much better opportunities than this one. I pass.

Dunc ?? never saw that name--are you sure it's not Dunck, or Dunce?? and about your advise....don't you know the flop might be A 8 8 ?? then you wauld have a full house.


serious note--Dunc,your advise is 100%...I don't even like that hand in the big blind, for a free flop

Rick,

I was lurking over there and read the thread you're referring to. I too was pretty surprised by some of the responses, especially one in particular, but I won't mention any names and start trouble :->. Maybe I'm just a tight wad, but I don't like calling with this hand UTG or on the button. Sure suited aces are nice, but with this example one of your flush outs is dead and your other possibilities are pretty weak.


I'm no O8 expert, but I've been happy with the results I've had at it by sticking to the advice in Ray Zee's book. Based on my read of that book, this hand is almost always a clear fold. However, maybe I'm missing something and I would be curious to read a post about this from Mr. Zee.


Caddy

I almost never read strategy posts on rgp. There's too much really good stuff over there.


The key word in your (Lee's) question is: PASSIVE. In a passive loose game this hand UTG would be borderline, and I would fold it. But after five limpers, I'm coming.


Yes, I know, it has almost no low possibilty, but with five limpers, the chances of a low flop are reduced. If the flop is high, I'm going to hammer it real hard and push them out. Then I've got an emergency low if it comes runner-runner.

its just the opposite as what people may think. it plays better headup than with alot of loose callers. still its always a fold utg and best to fold all the time unless you really are on top of the game and have good reason to think it has value. you need to catch too much when you have alot of action for it to win.

it looks too pretty to fold but thats life, the good looking ones do you in.

ray,


agree that this is a good hand for attacking the blinds or defending against a single raiser. Note that head up you would much rather have AQ88 than AQ99. The A-8 low will back into half the pot head up while it will almost never win low against a field. OTOH, if you flop a set (with the nines) you like the fact that the card that makes you a set does not put a low card out there.


but you already know that and more /images/smile.gif


Regards,


Rick

"In fact, I have almost made it a personal rule not to play a hand that contains an eight, never mind two of them."


I used to think that this was a sound approach, but I've changed my view quite a bit, and it's really because an 8 can fit the rest of a hand quite nicely.


Thus, I would play A288 happily in many situations, because an 8 not only gives you a set, but puts a non-counterfeiting low card on the flop. Similar deal with e.g. A248. Would you fold either of those automatically (I haven't overlooked that you said "almost" in your post)? Would you say A248 is worse than A24J? Not necessarily at all, I think.


However, whether a set of 8s or even a pair of 8s is worth anything is very context-dependent, of course. Heads up, a set could be massive and even a pair could be very important. E.g. you have A248 and the 2-player flop is 389. That 8 makes a lot of difference, quite possibly half a pot's worth. Compare e.g. if you had A249 and the flop was 39T. The fact that the 8 is the biggest card that also moves you towards a low is quite significant.


Some people even say that you shouldn't play a hand with an 8 or a 9 in it. There's a potentially whopping difference between an 8 and a 9. Compare A288 with A299. The sets they can flop are equally good (or bad, I concede!), but the effect of making a set on the rest of the hand, the low part, is radically different.


Oh no!! Not again!


PS Steve Badger pointed some of this out, esp. re A288, in a post which is on his website. I hope it's not a breach of (n)etiquette to say so, or not say so. Or whatever.

I was only being facetious about the 8's, OhNo. Of course, I would play something like A288, and if I held the A248 in late position, and the Ace was suited, I pop it. What I meant was that I place virtually NO value on an 8 in and of itself. If it is tagging along in a hand that has other redeeming value, such as perhaps AA38 double suited, for example, then fine. But as you know, it is rare that the 8, or 88, lends a great deal of strength to your O/8 hand.


I just hate making low and middle sets in this game. You can almost never play them aggressively, and if you do make top set with them, you almost always finding yourself jamming it up for half the pot. Might be profitable, but it's scary at times as you would no doubt agree.