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10-12-2001, 01:01 AM
With an aggressive but otherwise average player in mid position posting a full kill I limp UTG with As-2s-Qd-Tc (I know there is merit to raising BTF but that isn’t the point of the post). The killer raps pat, a very loose player (VLP) calls in the cutoff, the small blind folds, and the big blind calls a half bet more.


The flop comes 3s-5s-Kd. The big blind checks. I consider betting but the killer is reaching for chips so I check. The killer bets, VLP calls, and the big blind folds. What is my best action on the flop?


Assume I call the flop (this may not be the best play). The turn comes the jack of clubs. Once again the killer is reaching for chips behind me so I check. The killer bets, the VLP calls and it is my action.


What is my best play and is it a close decision?


Regards,


Rick

10-12-2001, 10:08 AM
id tend to be checking and calling as i wouldnt want to stop the guy from telegraphing. as thats more value than getting an extra bet, knowing whether he will bet or check. on 4th street it looks like you need to raise for value.

10-12-2001, 10:24 AM
With three players and a monster draw to nut highs and lows, I'd try and maximize my chances to sweep. It sounds like you didn't want to eliminate the players behind you, but this could be unlikely since one is very loose and may call raises, and getting it heads up may actually be better. I'd bet when I see the killer go for his chips, and hope to be raised. If VLP calls, you're getting the best of it with your nut high and low draws. If VLP folds, that's fine too - VLP may have had a bad low like 67, and if the turn is a high spade and the river is an ace or a two you've won yourself half the pot if the killer was going high.


On the turn, you have to try and build a huge pot. If killer looks ready to bet, let him and check raise. You're leaving way too much money on the table if you don't raise in this situation. You have too many outs to the nuts in both directions.


On the turn against three players with 44 cards remaining, you have at least 14 outs to a sweep (4678 of spades, all four 9s, three Ts, three Qs), 5 others that may sweep (three 4s, JK of spades), 9 additional outs to just the low (three each of 876), 3 additional outs to just the high (3 aces)


There are only 9 cards you don't want to see (3 non-spade kings and jacks, and three 2s), everything else will give you a piece of the pot.

10-12-2001, 10:39 AM
I agree; raise for value on 4th street. Top wrap plus nut flush draw plus nut low draw (no counterfeit protection, but you can't have everything ...).


Any non-pairing spade or any non-pairing card above an 8 gives you the nut high, small spades give you nut-nut. About the only cards you don't want to see are a pair on board (although the pairing spades maybe OK), an ace or a deuce. Probably not all those cards are live, but if they are, then there are 18 of them (I think), and all the rest of the deck is either good or great for you. They're not all scoopers, but they're still good.


Oh no!! Not again!

10-12-2001, 12:03 PM
Well, after my hatchet job the other day (see post below), maybe I'm not qualfied to offer a take here, Rick, but before I peek at the comments of the esteemed Mr Zee et at, I will plunge in anyway.


Mindful of the fact that YOUR game texture is diametrically opposed to that of the WEM crew, I would also just limp in UTG with that hand. I love the hand, but would welcome several callers rather than try to leverage the kill and drive people out.


But with that flop, I would be inclined to bet out. If you trust your read of the killer that he is going to bet, go for the flop checkraise. I'm not sure that jacking it up on the flop IS the best play, and maybe my play is colored by the fact the guys I play against would be limping in with far worse hands that what you have here, but sheesh. Can't say as I fault you for the smoothcall, though, with only two opponents and a hand that will possibly only get half the pot unless a non-pairing spade comes.


But now you hit the "big draw" turn card of all time. NOW I would go for the checkraise for sure, and no, I dont' think it is close. By my calculations, you have 26 clean outs to at least half the pot, and many of them give you the nut high, or nut low, or that best of all worlds, the nut-nut. If you end up getting counterfeited, or quartered, well them's the breaks, but with such a huge draw here, I would want to max out the earn. Higher variance, to be sure, but these types of hands dont' come down the turnpike every day, either. If you get re-raised by Killer's (presumed) set, well grit you teeth, call and hope for the 9s on the river!


Now I will peek.

10-12-2001, 12:13 PM
Doesn't an Ace give Rick Broadway?


I calculated the outs as these, and it is 30 outs, not 26 as I previously stated.


3 Ace's, 0 Deuces, 0 treys, four-4's, 0 5's, four 6's,7's,8's, or 9's,the Ts (maybe), 3 Jack's, 3 Q's and maybe the Ks.


This would have to make the turn checkraise an excellent value bet.

10-12-2001, 12:55 PM
Yes of course the ace gives the nut straight; apologies for dumb oversight.


Oh no!! Not again!

10-12-2001, 02:47 PM
This hand illustrates a problem when players move from holdem to a soft Omaha H/L game. The game is slow and boring and you can get in the routine of endlessly folding and your mind gets dull. On this hand there was no chance that I could semi-bluff bet and take it down with these two opponents so I knew I had to make a hand. But I fell asleep after the bet came from my left. I just called leaving a ton of EV on the table as I clearly had a checkraise for value. I knew I made a huge mistake a second later and kicked myself.


I'm hoping the public embarrassment will keep me awake today.


Regards,


Rick