Sneeky Case of the Two-Pair

[etgryphon]

Hey All,

This is my first post and I think I know the answer to my own question, but I want to make sure that I thinking along the right paths...

SNG $30+3 on UB: Blinds are 20-40

--Villian 1100(chips) UG
No Reads yet, early, only saw him play QT from late position, pretty aggressive.
--Hero 1800(chips) BB w/ A8o

Villian raise pot to 80, folds around to CO who calls, and I call...

Flop(6.5BB):

8 J A (rainbow)

I bet the pot. He raises all-in...CO folds.

Now What?!

[lorinda]

Call as fast as you can, lose to AJ, post in forum.

Edit: Welcome to the forums, there's certainly nothing wrong with your post if I came across as moody. (I am moody, but you probably know that already.)

I actually meant the 'post in forums' bit.
If you did lose this hand and you need somewhere to chill, posting is almost certainly +EV


Lori

[etgryphon]

Call does seem to show +EV...

But lets look at what he could have through some clues...

(1) Raise from early position. This could mean two things. A good hand but not a great hand(i.e. AQo, AJo, KQo Pairs 8 and below) He wasn't really entering a lot of pots but not impressing me with his play.

(2) Ace comes with a J and an 8 and I lead out to bet hoping he has an Ace with a good kicker. The Ace dooesn't scare him so he telling me that he can beat it or he is a maniac. So that narrows it down to AA, AK, AQ, AJ, JJ, 88 if he is playing smart. If he is playing crazy this could be KK, QQ, TT, 99, Axs, KJ, QJ(though unlikely).

I just don't know, I really want to call...

[captZEEbo1]

one thing I do different here is....fold A8o to the pf raise. I'm definitely calling the allin and hoping he doesn't have AJ. I'd smell an AK AQ AJ JJ or 88... only 5 possibilities in my book. AA would be played differently, I'd assume (perhaps a smooth call to hope to induce the CO to call, considering he's not really at high risk for losing the pot). I feel like JJ or 88 might be played differently too, but I pushing the flop might work too, assuming the other guy will call you with AQ or AK or something of that nature. (I usually bet bottom sets hard, even if it's rainbow when there's an A on board...b/c either people will call you with the A, or they have nothing and won't even call small bets).

[Dallara]

This post brings up an issue which I've been struggling with lately which is over-playing two pair. I feel like this is one of the biggest holes in my game right now, judging by my poker traker stats where I have big negatives from hands like a-j and some k-x A-x hands where it tends to come up. Hands where I might limp into a pot and then hit two pair. Not to hijack your thread, but here's a hand where this happened to me yesterday:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed)

CO (t275)
Button (t590)
SB (t620)
BB (t870)
UTG <font color="purple">(Villain)</font> (t1725)
UTG+1 (t445)
Hero (t1640)
MP2 (t1835)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG <font color="purple">(Villain)</font> calls t50, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t50, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t250) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Villain checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, Button folds, SB calls t100, BB folds, Villain calls t100.

Turn: (t550) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Villain checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Villain raises to t525</font>, Hero calls t275.

River: (t1600) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Villain bets t965</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2565

On this hand, I had a decent stack, with several players in the flop, I made a small bet on the flop, 1/2 the pot on the turn (after hitting second pair) and got raised. After his all-in on the river, he showed pocket fives for a full house, so I was behind the whole time. You could certainly argue that I shouldn't have been in the hand, but anyone feel I should have led with more on the turn? If the Aces hadn't paired, would anyone else be tempted to call the river bet? I guess I'm curious about any general thoughts on playing a "lucky" two pair hand like this.

[captZEEbo1]

a call on the river is pretty much calling solely a bluff. It doesn't seem like he could've been staying in this far with anything if he's a decent player. I don't like this flop bet here though. I'm in check-fold mode from EP with that hand.

[etgryphon]

No problem on Shang-haiing(sp) the thread tht what we here for...

I agree with the Capt. here I would be in check-fold mode and wouldn't have bet the flop.

Also. preflop in mid position it is better to raise or fold. Only call when there are a lot of people coming in to the hand which kinda "protects" against the raise unless they have a hugh hand (i.e. AA, KK ...) then it is an easy fold preflop on the reraise.

No need to call on the end, you hand is drawing dead by all accounts.

-Gryph

[NotMitch]

Fold preflop, A8o for a raise vs an aggressive player out of position is bad news.

[Dallara]

I don't know if I have much to add, but I'll just elaborate a little on my reasons for betting the flop and maybe someone will have further thoughts. The flop bet was pretty much a bluff. I had enough of a stack to see if I could just take it down on the flop. After I get two callers, I had to give them credit for at least an Ace, so am definitely going to check-fold the turn. Except...I catch the second pair on the turn, then I thought my hand might be good and worth another bet. I think the biggest mistake (assuming you can get over the flop bluff) was calling the turn raise. I should have been able to give it up then. As it was, it was the aces pairing on the river that convinced me I couldn't win.

So, after the turn, do you think it's worth a bet or are you still in check-fold mode? I will accept, "It's worth not betting the flop just to avoid that position" as an answer. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lorinda]

Fold preflop, A8o for a raise vs an aggressive player out of position is bad news.

I said this in my original post, but then realised it was a mini-raise.

I'll always call a mini with this hand against an aggressive, it tells him 'bet bigger, or go away'

Lori

[etgryphon]

I called the guy...

He flips over AJo and i didn't improve...

Oh well, I think I'd play it the same way...But, it still is a sneeky call for the 88, JJ, AJ being very possible...

-Gryph