AQs, going for overcalls right or wrong?

[TwoShedsJackson]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (19 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

River: (15.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

With so many players in and drawing to the nut flush I thought it would be better to go for overcalls here rather than raising and knocking people out - ended up making top pair and was somewhat mystified by the fold on the river, not that I'm complaining.

Was keeping callers in the better course of action?

[Piiop]

Why did you 3-bet preflop with AQs?

Your postflop play is good. You're not going to win this hand without hitting one of your draws, so keeping the callers in is fine.

Nice table, BTW. Two players call 3 cold and the SB calls 2.5 cold - sounds like a good time.

[TwoShedsJackson]

The 3-bet is Ed Miller's fault really /images/graemlins/smile.gif in SSH he mentions that if the player on your right bets, it's best to raise or fold, tending towards folding. I decided to raise because there was so much cold calling going on in previous hands I figured I'd be in for a nice pot with a good drawing hand if I got a flop I liked.

Obviously AKs would be an automatic reraise, is AQs that much weaker not to do so?

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
Your postflop play is good. You're not going to win this hand without hitting one of your draws, so keeping the callers in is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with hero's flop play. The pot is huge so I raise this flop to clean up my overcard outs and hopefully get a free card if I whiff on the turn. Plus, at this limit you're likely to get a cold caller or two anyways and flush draws will still come along.

[Professor Frink]

Raise the flop here!!!! I can't see any reason not to

[mikeyKay]

i do not think this is a spot to go for overcalls. The pot is already huge, and you have a big draw and some overcards. judging from the action on this hand, the table looks like calling station city. you can raise the flop for value. you will make more money raising in this situation.

-mike

[Piiop]

Yeah, raising the flop is clearly the best play. I'll blame it on lack of sleep.

[PokerIsLife]

Man, what are these ppl calling 3 cold with. Raise the flop, the pot is big enough to start discouraging ppl from the pot.

[Piiop]

A big problem with cold-calling a preflop raise when you're next to act after the raiser is the terrible position it puts you in. In this case, you flopped two overcards and the nut flush draw with many opponents, so a flop raise would clearly be for value. However, since you have bad position, raising might force out some of the players you want to stay in and pay you off. Also, if you cold-call with a hand like AQs/AJs, it will be difficult to play if an A or a Q/J falls. If an A falls, you may be outkicked and if a Q/J falls you might be beat by a higher pocket pair.

When players inbetween call the preflop raise, you can correctly call with AQs/AJs/KQs and some pocket pairs. Your position now allows you see the action before it gets to you, make value raises, and possibly make a free card raise.

That said, 3-betting with AQs isn't a bad thing at all, but usually you should have a read on your oppponent. Most players range of preflop raising hands is something like : AA-TT, AK-AJ, KQ. Of those hands, AQs is dominated by AA, KK, QQ, &amp; AK and it's a coinflip against JJ/TT and it dominates only AJ/KQ. So when you opt to play this hand against a raise, you will rarely be a preflop favorite. If you had AKs, then you're only dominated by AA and KK and you dominate more hands - this makes AKs an easy 3-bet. So, only if you know the preflop raiser will raise with a wider range of hands does AQs becomes a 3-bet. That's why I asked, because usually in this situaiton AQs would be a fold.

[spacemonkey57]

Would anyone call the flop and raise the turn? Raising the flop will not protect your hand, since the pot is large enough that raising will still give your opponents 10-1 to call two cold on the flop. If you wait for the turn to force them to cold call two then they won't be getting correct odds to hit a longshot draw.

I might be misapplying the concept here though.

[Jimbobobb]

Protect what hand? Hero has high card ace. This isn't about 'protecting' anything.

The argument here is for raising the flop because the pot is pretty big, and we wouldn't mind increasing our odds of winning it. The bet might also be for a lot of value with hero's great draw, but if it knocks out a few people hero is fine with that, because it probably cleans up some of his overcard outs. It might also result in a free card if hero misses on the turn.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Would anyone call the flop and raise the turn? Raising the flop will not protect your hand, since the pot is large enough that raising will still give your opponents 10-1 to call two cold on the flop. If you wait for the turn to force them to cold call two then they won't be getting correct odds to hit a longshot draw.

I might be misapplying the concept here though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising is for value and possibly a free card, not for protecting. Hero doesn't have a hand he can protect now.

[spacemonkey57]

[ QUOTE ]
Protect what hand? Hero has high card ace. This isn't about 'protecting' anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. I was thinking that it would clean up the overcard outs, but I think i was mixing two things up.

[HajiShirazu]

I would raise this flop every time. I don't mind if people fold, and I don't mind if people call.
At a table this loose you can probably 3-bet this. If the whole table is going to call 3 cold, you still have plenty of equity even if you're dominated.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously AKs would be an automatic reraise, is AQs that much weaker not to do so?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. I 3-bet with AQs a lot of the time.

Haupt_234

[Fiddler]

[ QUOTE ]

Was keeping callers in the better course of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Pump the draw, a lot of players will call two when the pot is that big. And you shouldn't mind if they fold since it cleans up your overcard outs.