Flop Decision: Check-raise or Lead [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Popinjay

11-01-2004, 05:05 AM

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO raises, Hero folds, MP calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP bets, CO raises, MP calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB
Main Pot: 14.25 BB, between MP and CO. > Pot won by CO (14.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
MP has Qd Kd (flush, king high).
CO has Kc 6s (full house, sixes full of kings).
Outcome: CO wins 14.25 BB. 

On the flop I was 90% sure MP would bet.

imitation

11-01-2004, 05:34 AM

If you CR the flop I think you have to lead the turn no matter what cards hits...

I would lead the flop, but I think CR or leading are fairly close. I would bet the turn though.

NLSoldier

11-01-2004, 05:50 AM

I like leading the flop if you think theres a chance MP will raise and force out the CO. By CRing the flop after an MP bet and CO call, you are pretty much going to have to win a showdown to win the pot as they will be less willing to let go after investing two bets on the flop. I think check calling the flop and betting out on the turn could be another option.

Scotch78

11-01-2004, 07:09 AM

I would bet, hoping MP will raise and knock out the CO, then I'd 3-bet to get a feel whether MP has an overpair or just unmatched paint.

Scott

ALL1N

11-01-2004, 08:13 AM

The 3 replies have said to lead, 2 saying that they hope MP will raise to knock out the third player. I have seen this idea put forward a great deal in this forum. In general, unless MP is a known LAG, he will raise you when you're beat a greater deal than when you're ahead, thus isolating _you_ with 5 outs. And when he's got 2 overcards, the situation where you want more money to go in on the flop because you're winning, he'll frequently just call, letting the CO close the betting facing one bet.

Leading just seems so bad to me, especially when its such a ragged flop that the preflop raiser will nearly always bet.

Spook

11-01-2004, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop I was 90% sure MP would bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are sure MP will bet, your CR will only trap the CO and there will be no folding. Are you that confident in your hand? (I wouldn't be)

If you were sure that the CO would bet, then a CR and a lead on the turn would be great. It is a thing of if the better/raiser is on your right or left.

kiddo

11-01-2004, 09:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In general, unless MP is a known LAG, he will raise you when you're beat a greater deal than when you're ahead, thus isolating _you_ with 5 outs. And when he's got 2 overcards, the situation where you want more money to go in on the flop because you're winning, he'll frequently just call, letting the CO close the betting facing one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you say is: 1) If he got an overpair (or A9) he will raise but 2) with overcards he will call. If not he is "a known LAG".

This is not true at 10/20SH and there is a simple reason for it. Its normally wrong calling with overcards in a small pot when the blind bets and you have a coldcaller behind you. There is a good chance that the coldcaller is sitting with overcards 2 and you want him out. And with this flop there is a chance that the first bet was with a flush- or straightdraw.

I would fold weak overcards and raise good ones if I was preflopraiser. Making it very good for our HERO betting his toppair and then 3betting it.

[ QUOTE ]
Leading just seems so bad to me, especially when its such a ragged flop that the preflop raiser will nearly always bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there was a limper and then a raiser and u calling in BB I understand checkraise. But now? You want preflopcoldcaller out and checkraising is not the way to do it.

You seemed to think that preflopraiser is aggressive enough to bet any overcards if u check but not prepared to raise them if u bet. I would say that the one passive enough to not raise overcards on flop also are passive enough to check them if if its 3way.

ALL1N

11-01-2004, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You want preflopcoldcaller out and checkraising is not the way to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually quite happy for the preflop coldcaller to put in 2 bets with overcards here. Why? Because he's freqently dominated by the preflop raiser's overcards, and drawing to 3 outs, which is profitable for me.

NMcNasty

11-01-2004, 09:49 PM

I like checkraising (and betting out the turn despite scare cards).

For betting out the flop to be a better play the original raiser would have to be bad enough to autoraise with two overcards and the cut off would have to be bad enough to autocall with two overcards twice against a check raise.