When do you consider yourself out of fold equity?

[Bigwig]

Obviously, if you move all-in from the CO and the Button is sitting on QQ, you're usually in a lot of trouble. But it seems to me that the big worry about fold equity comes from the range of hands that the BB or early limpers may call with, since they are often the last to act after you've made your move. With money already in the pot, they're getting significantly better odds to call.

Without limpers, it appears (based on my calculations) that you need at least 5BB to make their call difficult. And, if there are limpers, you need even more.

What do you consider the point where you've lost all fold equity?

And with limpers in the hand, how does this affect your thought process?

It seems to me that the limpers and BB's stack size has to be taken into consideration. Big stacks will obviously have much more freedom to call a with proper odds, if they will only lose something like 25% of their stack if they don't win, and this must be considered if you're going to move in with a 'decent' hand like 55 or KQo when you only have 5BB.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

[ilya]

It depends very strongly on how loose/tight the BB is. With some players, I feel like I have little folding equity with 6xBB. With others, I feel confident of having substantial folding equity with 2xBB.
The size of the BB's stack also matters. If the BB is very short, your folding equity goes down. If the BB has a huge stack, I think your fold equity may go up when you have more than 7-8xBB (the BB figures he doesn't need to take any big chances), but it definitely goes down if you have <5xBB.

Basically, I don't think it's all that useful to talk about "folding equity" as a yes/no proposition. But on average, I think the steep drop-off at the $20s tends to begin at 4xBB.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends very strongly on how loose/tight the BB is. With some players, I feel like I have little folding equity with 6xBB. With others, I feel confident of having substantial folding equity with 2xBB.
The size of the BB's stack also matters. If the BB is very short, your folding equity goes down. If the BB has a huge stack, I think your fold equity may go up when you have more than 7-8xBB (the BB figures he doesn't need to take any big chances), but it definitely goes down if you have <5xBB.

Basically, I don't think it's all that useful to talk about "folding equity" as a yes/no proposition. But on average, I think the steep drop-off at the $20s tends to begin at 4xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I understand that there are many variables to the question. That's poker. What I'm looking for is a standard stack size where you're generally out of fold equity. Then, you can adjust accordingly depending on opponents stack sizes, their aggressiveness, and your own stack size.

I came up with 5BB because that is the point in which the BB needs better odds than $1.50 to call.

Anyone else have some input?

[SmileyEH]

There will always be BB's out there stubborn enough to call with A4o facing a 9xBB raise, and then of course there are the wonderful BB's who will fold their 72o facing a 1.5XBB raising getting a fantastic 6-1 price on their call.

Player dependence is key and a hard and fast rule is pointless to try and derive.

-SmileyEH

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Player dependence is key and a hard and fast rule is pointless to try and derive.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe I already said I'm not looking for a 'hard and fast' rule.

Everything everybody does on this board, from the 5% ROI guy at $5 to the 20% guy at $100 tables is based on base assumptions that are adjusted to specific situations.

[morgan180]

My rule-of-thumb is that if my stack is equal to or less than 1/3 the stack of the guy I'm playing against then my folding equity begins to really dwindle. Except of course for the following:

bubble time where he is close in chips to the others and I am the short stack, then I think I have folding equity until I am at 2 x bb raise level.

if i have been playing really tight and have not stolen from him yet my equity is still good

bubble time if this is some type of winner take all or 1/2 take all (like a qualifier) then my equity is still good against a chip leader

All of the factors mentioned in the posts are critically important, and the ones that make the final decision,of course.