How much is too much to lose in a day?

[FailedLogic]

First of all, I want to say that I'm sure this has been answered before but simply couldn't find a post that answers this question. I tried, I promise. On to the question . . .

I was home sick today and I played partypoker.com .5/1 tables for about 8 hours straight. I usually can beat the game on this site, but today was different. Naturally, I don't see very many flops so when I do, I hope they work out. Today, they didn't. I know you've all been there so I'll spare the details.

However, what concerned me the most is that I went for 8 hours and lost about 85 BB for the day. This is way more than I've ever lost in one day. I went to my logbook and couldn't even find consecutive days where I lost that much.

Despite the horrible result, I feel like I played well. I kept tight and played good pockets aggressively. However, this cost money over time as I'd lose a decent amount of money each time my AA or AK would fail me.

So, my question is this: how much is too much to lose in a day? Is -85 BB in 8 hours horrendous or is it something that "just happens to everyone"?

I've only been playing online for a month so I have no idea. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
FailedLogic

[sin808]

It happens..how much is too much can only be answered by you and what your tolerance level for said losses are.

[FailedLogic]

Basically, I can handle anything as long as I know it's reasonable. That is, let's take an extreme example and said I lost 15,000 BB in 8 hours. If I posted that on here, everyone would say I suck, plain and simple.

So, I guess my question is actually this: "do good players have 8 hour stretches where they lose 85 BB while playing their normal game (no tilt, etc.)?" If the answer is "yes", I'm fine. If the answer is "no", then I will need to figure out what happened.

Like I said before, I typically either win a little or lose a little in each session. I have never had such a long streak of beats since I started.

Thanks again. If anyone else would like to chime in, I'd appreciate more feedback.

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]

However, what concerned me the most is that I went for 8 hours and lost about 85 BB for the day.



[/ QUOTE ]

I just lost 60bb in an hour. Ish happens.

[busguy]

[ QUOTE ]


So, I guess my question is actually this: "do good players have 8 hour stretches where they lose 85 BB while playing their normal game (no tilt, etc.)?" If the answer is "yes", I'm fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

YES

/images/graemlins/smile.gif busguy

[the_rookie]

Thats not bad. I've lost close to a 100 bbs in the last few days. A total of about 5.5 hours. I play at 0.02 - 0.04 so its not that bad. But the principal of it, is that 100bb is 100 bb, lol.

Yeah, I'm pretty tight too just sitting on good cards (and i follow the SSH charts pretty religiously /images/graemlins/smile.gif) So despite being sucked out on most of the time I can't regret my plays just like you dont. WE can't control what cards come out.

I think your attitude towards the game is great one. Many people tilt away their money, but you seem pretty positive about the whole situation. Keep your head up, you'll win more than your fair share /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[detruncate]

It happens to everyone. You might find this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1133046&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) interesting. Post some of the hands you lost money on. If you've played them correctly, great. The reassurance is always welcome when you've dropped a few BBs. If not, it's a good opportunity to learn something.

I hope things turn around for you soon.

[Yobz]

Down 50BB 2-tabling 2/4 for 3 hours, playing my A game. It happens, I expect to get it all back and then some shortly /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[_Kevin_]

It happens. You claim you never went on tilt (and I'm not implying you did) but I would think back and see if it did affect your play (I sometimes find my self not quite as aggressive on these streaks or overplaying good hands when I finally get them). For me, the hardest part is keeping my attitude positive and knowing it will turn around.

Hope things turn around for you soon.

[PokerIsLife]

I lost 100BB in 2 hours playing 4 tables. It was the worst session in thus far for me, but like you, I didn't have a problem with how I played, just a lot of bad rivers that ruined me.

[TPL]

I've found that I do ok follwoing starting hand charts, but I was sticking around for an extra bet or two after the flop. If you do that just once or twice an hour, it's still going to have a significant effect. I'm bearing down, studying and analying my post-flop play.

Do you have a sense for how you did post-flop?

[crockett]

My stop loss is set at 100BB. I have never hit that but I have hit @ -90BB a couple times in one sitting. I am considering raising my stop loss to -50BB.

This is why:

The couple (3-4) times I have had big losing sessions, in all but one case, I thought I was playing well. Each time I went back and replayed my entire session, wether it be 4 or 8 hours on Poker Tracker. In each case I decided I wasn't playing well towards the end of the session.

You can be the judge of yourself but I know in all cases that I was definately playing poorly towards the end of the session. Staying too long, raising when I shouldn't, trying FPS. Basically tilting. I think in all cases I was honestly playing very well in the beginning of the session but found myself down 30-50 BB just because of cold cards, suckouts etc. But since I am used to winning at a rate of 4-6 BB/100 that these times come rarely and I handle them poorly. Until I can handle long streaks of poor cards and still play properly I have decided to move my stop loss to -75BB and I'm even considering -50BB.

You mentioned you pushed your big pocket pairs hard. How hard? Post some examples.

[IlliniRyRy]

[ QUOTE ]
My stop loss is set at 100BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop losses are completely irrelevant unless you really feel that the other players at your table are playing differently against you because you're losing. This would rarely happen though, since people just aren't that receptive at the low limits. It's all one long session, if you quit at a specific amount for a particular day or whatever, the cards are still going to be just as random when you start up again. If you think having a stop loss really has an affect on your results, it is an illusion. And in response to the 100BB losing session, there's no question that this is a very common occurrence, even for the best players. Keep in mind though that it's actually much harder for a winning player to lose 100BB in the lower games because they're much easier, less aggressive, and there is less variance.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop losses are completely irrelevant unless you really feel that the other players at your table are playing differently against you because you're losing... If you think having a stop loss really has an affect on your results, it is an illusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've completely overlooked the psychological play on your end. Playing poorly when you're frustrated by a tough run of cards is not an illusion. Just like playing poorly when tired, drunk, bored, or otherwise distracted is not an illusion.

The same is true when you're doing well. If you start to loosen up because things are going your way, you should think about taking a break (unless you loosen up because the players are loose passive -- that's different).

[the_rookie]

[ QUOTE ]
And in response to the 100BB losing session, there's no question that this is a very common occurrence, even for the best players. Keep in mind though that it's actually much harder for a winning player to lose 100BB in the lower games because they're much easier, less aggressive, and there is less variance.

[/ QUOTE ]


I do not think that because lower limits are less aggresive and easier, that it has less variance. The lower limits have more variance up and down. The reason is because the players at these levels are not playing their odds correctly, calling bad preflop hands, which leads to suckouts for those of us that are playing a less variety of hands and seeing less flops. On the other hand when these players miss their "miracle cards" we win more.

As easy as it is to win a 100 BB in a session at a lower limit game, it's just as easy to lose it.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
That is, let's take an extreme example and said I lost 15,000 BB in 8 hours. If I posted that on here, everyone would say I suck, plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think they would. Losing 15,000 BB in 8 hours would take an insane amount of skill.

[Blarg]

You say you didn't tilt, and I may get some grief from people who have been sick a long time and are still playing fine, but I'm going to say something anyway.

Being sick can effectively be the same as being on tilt. The mind and body are connected, and almost any kind of ailment can pull your focus away from things, even if it doesn't make you particularly groggy or spacey or whatever.

Personally, I've noticed a pretty frequent correlation between being sick and losing sessions.

People who are chronically ill may learn to adapt to it, and have a great deal of experience playing with the handicaps of illness, but most of us will probably not be used to feeling ill and thus will not be very in touch with what our abilities are when ill. We may not be taking the extra effort to be treating ourselves right when we are ill, or realize how "off" our play really is.

It's likely that with the diminished mental and physical energy that can come with being sick, your game was not at its best. I'd advise being very careful when it comes to playing while ill.

Oh, and just to chime in and reaffirm what others are saying -- losses, even big losses, happen and are expected even when you're not tilting. In a poker session, all it takes is a single pot to go from winner to loser over the course of hours, so just a tiny extra bit of back luck or good luck, just a few hands, can result in very dramatic wins or losses.

Sometimes, it just happens to be losses.

That's just poker, no matter how good you are.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is, let's take an extreme example and said I lost 15,000 BB in 8 hours. If I posted that on here, everyone would say I suck, plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think they would. Losing 15,000 BB in 8 hours would take an insane amount of skill.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. Raise, 3-bet, and cap every street, then fold the river. You'd have to tell the table what you were doing, though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[FailedLogic]

"Do you have a sense for how you did post-flop? "

Yeah, let's just say I didn't do horrible but I didn't do great. After a few hours, I probably spent too much to see if the turn or river would help me out when I was drawing dead. After looking at the logs, I would say this cost me about 20 BB over the day. It's definitely a hole I should plug.

Also, I should say that I didn't read SSH until today. I have a few other limit books, but SSH is perfect for me. If I would have paid more attention to the pot size, I probably would have made even better decisions.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful posts.

[FailedLogic]

"You can be the judge of yourself but I know in all cases that I was definately playing poorly towards the end of the session."

Yeah, I have come to the realization (thanks to the helpful posts on this thread) that tilt can mean different things to different people. Did I completely lose my mind and start clicking "raise" on anything? No. Did I start to loosen up, try some FPS, bluff a little, etc.? Yes.

Again, this post was to figure out if -85 BB is reasonable for a good player in 8 hours. I think I have the answer to that question.

However, now I realize that I have to be careful about how long I play. No matter how long I've played or how much I've won/loss, I still need to play each hand for +EV.

I'm reading SSH now so I won't bother to post any hands about this session. Basically, I'll call it a learning experience and start my new post-SSH "career" ASAP.

[Rithmetician]

Hey I'm no stranger to the holdem but I'm new to the forum. What are the abbreviations SSH and EV? Thanks a lot in advance for answering obvious questions

[ChessMan]

Expected Value

Small Stakes Holdem a book.

[ChromePony]

I'll take this one:

SSH: Small Stakes Holdem, Ed Miller's book, buy it from this site and read it like 12 times. You'll be a better player for it.

EV: Expectation Value, the amount you expect to make/lose from a given decision. If you always make +EV decisions you will be a winning player...its as simple as that.