Omaha 8 - Turn Play Getting Jammed

In a nine-handed 9/18 kill Omaha the kill blind has been posted by the cutoff seat. From mid position I three bet a weak all in raiser with Ac-As-Qc-Qs. The cutoff seat cold calls and the big blind puts in his three full bets. Both live opponents are half decent tightish players. There are just over eleven small bets in the pot (eight bets plus the $3 small blind in the main pot and three bets in the side pot). Note that I have a very tight image in this game.


The flop comes Ad-4c-8d. The big blind bets, I raise (should I wait a round to see what happens?), the cutoff cold calls and the big blind makes it three bets. I call with my vulnerable nuts to half the pot. The cutoff also calls. I put the big blind at least on the nut low and perhaps two pair or a set or backup diamonds. The cutoff could also have something similar.


The turn comes the 5d. The big blind bets, I call, the cutoff raises, and the big blind reraises. I’m almost certain I need to pair the board to get half the pot and this round will get jammed (meaning I will have to call three more bets). What is my action?


What I did and results will be posted tomorrow night.


Regards,


Rick

Rick - Looks like a toss up, odds-wise.


After the turn, if I have stacked and counted the chips correctly, you're getting 3.33 to 1 implied pot odds if the board pairs on the river and you only manage to get in one bet on the river - but you're getting 3.5 to 1 implied pot odds if the board pairs and you manage to get in two bets on the river.


Your hand odds are 34 to 10 against or 3.4 to 1.


Well... maybe you're not quite getting 3.4 to 1 hand odds. Surely one of your opponents (probably the one who went all-in pre-flop) has the missing ace. And if you put at least one of your opponents on 2-3-X-X, quite possibly one of those Xs is a 5.


However, if you call this bet, maybe the betting won't get capped on the turn. In that case, the call would have favorable odds.


I simply cannot resist remarking that you created this nightmare for yourself by raising with your hand on the first two betting rounds.


When the player in front of you raised-all-in, pre-flop, you might have considered devaluing your bullets. Perhaps the possibility of limiting the field, pre-flop, is of greater theoretical importance. (I don't know).


Whenever there is an ace and no pair on the flop, and if the board doesn't pair, then a possible straight is highly likely. With this flop (A-4-8), the only two-card-combination of non-pairing cards that *doesn't* make a straight is K-9. After this flop, you have 385/990 ways to make a full house or better, plus another 9/990 ways for the turn and river to *not* enable a straight or a flush (in which case your set of aces will be the nuts for high). Thus after this flop you have 394 ways to feel confident of winning and 596 ways to lack confidence.


After the flop, although you have favorable odds to call, I don't think you have favorable odds to make a post-flop value raise. If your post-flop raise was to limit the field, then you would have done better not raising pre-flop. Post-flop, a raise to limit the field may be rendered ineffective because of the large amount of money already in the pot.


But what to do on the turn? Odds-wise, it seems a toss up. Table-image-wise, it isn't. For your own sake, having gone this far, I hope you called, or even raised. When it's a toss up, let your opponents see you as a tough, rather than timid, opponent.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

Rick,


"From mid position I three bet a weak all in raiser with Ac-As-Qc-Qs."


As Buzz has said I think this is where the problem lies. I would of just called. It's a beautiful hand for OHigh but with no Low possible it's needs major help from the flop.


"Ad-4c-8d"


As Zee quotes in his book when an Ace flops you have to tighten up. I consider this a bad flop for you although you have the nut high now but unless it pairs there is already a low or two out there with a threatening str/flush that you have no part of.


The turn "5d" puts you in another pickle. Flush/str.


This hand I would of had a total different philosophy to playing then you. I would of played it very passive and hopefully hit on the end.


JMO Paul

Buzz,


You wrote: ”I simply cannot resist remarking that you created this nightmare for yourself by raising with your hand on the first two betting rounds.”


My default play is to call pre flop and just call an active players raise. However, during the last several days against many of these opponents I had raised pre flop with nothing but suited A2, AA with a wheel card or two, and slightly weaker hands when first in on an attack from late. In this game I hadn’t entered a pot in an hour and thought my raise would get more respect (hopefully getting head up with the blind poster). Perhaps this is a mistake with no low outs. BTW, the all in raiser is not marked with an ace. He was an “any four cards” player and went all in to get it over with.


On the flop I agree the raise was dubious with the vulnerable nuts to half the pot. But I did think that my raise of the big blind would define the hand of the cutoff behind me. If he called, he had to be drawing to the nuts of some sort.


I’ll discuss the turn and river play later today or tonight.


Regards,


Rick

I think the pre-flop raise was completely correct. Aces and queens double suited is a monster hand indeed even with no low. There are many many flops which will offer scoop potential. A raise will either build a big pot when you have excellent prospects, or get you heads up against the all-in player.


Also, if you have a tight image (as you say you did in this game), players after you can hardly enter the pot unless they have A2xx, a similarly excellent low such as A34x, or all big cards. So players with A3xx only, 23xx, A4xx only, or worse lows will all really have to pass. Hardly anyone can even enter the pot to contest low, especially since you had two aces.


Moreover, the nature of your hand if you raise is very concealed, and although making trip aces will put a low card out, trip Qs will do very well and probably not be read correctly by your opponents. Both your flush draws can be made without a low coming.


Frankly, if you won't raise with this high-only hand in this situation you must be one of those people who won't raise with any high-only hand in any situation, which is a bad and blinkered way to play in my view, especially in smaller games.


One interesting thing about this hand is what you should do once it becomes clear that the pot is going to be jammed on 4th street. If your pot odds plus implied odds to call are correct then an interesting and little used play is to raise yourself. You're going to put the 4 or 5 bets in anyway, and raising can deceive players into calling an extra bet or two if the board does pair. Occasionally, as a bonus, putting in an extra raise can prevent the pot from being capped after all, because the nut low stops thinking that he is going to quarter you.


Oh no!! Not again!

then an interesting and little used play is to raise yourself


I like this play in a lot of games. If you are drawing and know you're going to call a raise, go ahead and raise yourself. It sets up a big payday if you hit.

Oh no!! Not again! -


“Frankly, if you won't raise with this high-only hand in this situation you must be one of those people who won't raise with any high-only hand in any situation”


Hmm. On this point you are very much mistaken. I might or might not have raised with this hand before reading this thread. My pre-flop raises are more related to particular opponents (and the effect I want and expect the raises to have) than to specific cards I hold. Against unknown and/or excellent opponents, I randomize my play somewhat. Double suited aces and queens is a big hand, certainly meeting my standards for playable hands from any position in a ring game. Therefore the hand qualifies as a possible pre-flop raising hand, even though I might not have pre-flop raised with it here.


And, in truth, I might have raised with it here, pre-flop and/or post-flop, just as Rick did. But that doesn't mean raising, pre-flop and/or post-flop, is necessarily the best way to play the hand. (I don't know if it is or not). IMHO, it's certainly worth examining.


“an interesting and little used play is to raise yourself. You're going to put the 4 or 5 bets in anyway, and raising can deceive players into calling an extra bet or two if the board does pair.”


Interesting way to think, IMHO. An excellent suggestion for getting extra bets when you make your hand on the river. Thank you.


“Occasionally, as a bonus, putting in an extra raise can prevent the pot from being capped after all”


I agree.


Just my opinion. Thanks again for sharing your reasoning on the excellent suggestion.


Buzz

Rick - I don’t feel critical of your play - not at all. What you did makes sense to me, especially given your explanation. This thread is particularly interesting to me because I can see myself doing the very same thing you did. In seeming, perhaps, to pick over your play, I’m trying to learn something here.


One observation, perhaps a hasty or trivial one, is that one’s moves post-flop seem to be limited by pre-flop jamming. If you get enough money in the pot on the first betting round, then you (and some of your opponents) may be stuck after the flop. Similarly, if you all get enough money in the pot on the second bet, you’re all stuck again for the third bet - and then the fourth bet.


That may be a good way to play if your opponents are consistently playing poor starting hands - and/or stubbornly hanging in there with poor draws. But what if they’re not?


The “any four cards” player may not have the missing ace, but almost surely someone does. Of course, you don’t know that until you have re-raised and both BigBlind and CutOff have called the double raise. It is difficult for me to put BigBlind and/or CutOff on hands, pre-flop, without giving them both an ace. (Interesting there was an ace on the flop).


Maybe they both suspected you of making a move in this situation and decided to call with less than you or I might want to call. You didn’t tell us the river card yet. I don’t think the river card has a random probability (1 in 44) of being an ace. On the basis of your hand, the pre-flop betting, and the flop, I think the case ace is in someone’s hand.


If so, your chance of beating a flush is reduced by almost ten per cent. (Not quite ten per cent because you can also put some diamonds, twos and threes in someone's hand). Yet, even though you probably don't quite have the odds to do so, I still think you should see the river here, for the sake of your table image.


Just my current opinion. I welcome rebuttals, refinements, and corrections.


Buzz

You wrote: “Frankly, if you won't raise with this high-only hand in this situation you must be one of those people who won't raise with any high-only hand in any situation, which is a bad and blinkered way to play in my view, especially in smaller games.”


In a loose game I don’t do much raising up front but will limp reraise with my good two-way hands. I will raise with high only hands like this one in back. I also try to through in a late raise with KKQJ type hands against observant opponents just so I can’t always be put on strong lows. Against weak opponents I don’t use much deception.


You ended with “One interesting thing about this hand is what you should do once it becomes clear that the pot is going to be jammed on 4th street. If your pot odds plus implied odds to call are correct then an interesting and little used play is to raise yourself. You're going to put the 4 or 5 bets in anyway, and raising can deceive players into calling an extra bet or two if the board does pair. Occasionally, as a bonus, putting in an extra raise can prevent the pot from being capped after all, because the nut low stops thinking that he is going to quarter you.”


This is a great point and makes me realize just how weak my Omaha game is. I never even thought of making plays like this.


Regards,


Rick

In my original post I had the ace of diamonds on the flop. The flop contained two diamonds but the ace was not a diamond.


My thinking at the time was that I did not have all ten of my outs. I was pretty sure the ace was out as well as a disproportionate number of my "pair the board" cards. So I folded thinking I made the right play. Of course the board paired on the river. The big blind had the wheel along with trips. The cutoff player had the nut diamonds with an ace of course. He also had a second nut low if I remember correctly.


I don't see many players making these laydowns in this game and wondered if others out there do. At this point I may have made a mistake in raising on the flop with the low already out and my hand so vulnerable. I also see the point of calling when it is close. I've been zigging when I should be zagging all year.


Thanks for all the advice on this hand. My Omaha game needs a lot of work.


Regards,


Rick

Wow, I quite a surprising fold. W/about 17/2 to 3 i guess its a rather thin call and there is some chance that the board pairing may give some one quads. But I suspected you were against a 2 3 or two and maybe nut diamonds. SO your odds maybe a little better...


I don't think the flop raise is so bad. Id be very surprised if you weren't a money favorite here even though someone made a low.

Rick - Thanks for the great thread.


"I've been zigging when I should be zagging"


I hate it when I do that.


"Thanks for all the advice on this hand."


You're welcome. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert, just a student of the game. I learn from thinking about your posts and reading the responses of you and others.


"My Omaha game needs a lot of work."


Mine too.


Buzz

When I said:


“Frankly, if you won't raise with this high-only hand in this

situation you must be one of those people who won't raise with any high-only hand in any situation”


I didn't mean you (Buzz) personally, and I was commenting on O8 game play in general, not your particular style; perhaps I should have used the impersonal pronoun "one" instead.


Anyway, you are of course right that whether to call depends on the game, players and general situation as well as the cards, but in a typical low to mid limit game where there will probably be three to five people in the pot after a raise, you should lean heavily towards raising with a hand like this.


Oh no!! Not again!

Anytime you have such a strong hand, especially one that can scoop, you need to raise pre-flop. In LA, many of the players I have seen (3-6 through 9-18) are loose and will call caps with almost any 4 cards for the excitement of a huge pot. The flop provides us all with one of the most complex problems in O/8 - we have a high and the low is already made and there are st8 & flush draws. I think that the pot odds mandate a call or raise (I like this play) to see the river. You will win some and lose some, but in the long run, you will make your share of full houses and make money. The fold is too tight for my style. I have played against you and think you can be way too tight and predictable. Of course, if you called, the board would have failed to pair /images/smile.gif

I agree that I'm the tightest player at the table most of the time (in Omaha). Lately I've been getting a dry run of cards and flops so it might make it seem worse then it is. I can't remember the last time I flopped a two way jamming hand (two decent draws).


Regards,


Rick

Oh no!! Not again! - Thanks. I didn't take your remark personally, nor did I take offense. Although we may not always agree, I value and appreciate your opinions and advice on this forum.


Buzz

Rick, of course at this point knowing the results it is easy to say what should have been done on the hand. I play alot of Omaha 8, and I am by no means an expert. However, in general by fourth street there is often an overlay of pot odds related to calling the necessary bets to get to the river. Especially with your hand which would likely be the nuts for high. The only reason that I dont like going to the river with the hand in question is that you are only able to win 1/2 of the pot at this point if your board pairs. I would have likely mucked your hand after the flop revealed a clear low winner for 1/2 of the pot. I dont like chasing after half maybe. Now had the situation been set up to where 4th street did not present a low hand, and the river could win you the entire pot you are in a much better position. Just the way that I play the game. You want to be very careful not to get trapped in Omaha8, and the hand that you described while looking like a monster can be a trap. Only play high only hands selectively. You really want hands with a high draw, a low draw, and added flush capabilities for the redraw. Especially, when playing in a full, wild, and loose game.