How do you play small rolled-up trips?

I was playing 5-10 stud at the Mirage today and was fortunate to have rolled-up trips twice in just a few hours of play. I'm interested to know how fast people play these hands. I tend to want to wait until 5th street to get in my first raise as a way of both disguising the strength of my hand and getting the maximum amount of money into the pot (I think this gets the most money in. Perhaps, this is the issue).


Neither hand is real fascinating but I'll give the details to help the discussion.


First hand: Low card brings it in for a $1, a loose-aggressive player calls with Jd(he's raised with as little as a pair of 5s and bet them all the way to the river), a woman calls with a 10c, I call with three 6s and everybody folds behind me.


On 4th street (can't remember all cards perfectly):


Low card (x,x) 2?,?

Loose-aggresive (x,x) Jd,8

Woman (x,x) 10c, ?

Me (6,6) 6, A


My board is high so I bet to ensure getting some money in the pot. Low card folds, LAP calls, Woman folds.


On fifth street the LAP catches a blank and I pair Aces on the board killing my hand.


I bet and the LAP folds immediately. I was never so dissapointed to get a pair of Aces. They killed all my action.


2nd hand: Low card brings in in for a $1, Same woman calls with an 8 showing, I call with rolled-up 5s. A solid player to my left raises to $5 with a King showing, all fold except the woman and me who both call.


4th street (no flush draws so I won't include suits):


Woman (x,x) 8,?

Me (5,5) 5,7

Solid (x,x) K,4


Solid bets, the woman folds, and I call


5th Street:


Me (5,5) 5,7,7

Solid (x,x) K,4,9


I bet and Solid calls. (As a side note, a dispute occured at this point in the hand. I have detailed it in the "General Theory" section. It is called "Required to tell oppenent my doorcard at Mirage". I appreciate some feedback on that topic, as well)


6th Steet:


Me (5,5) 5,7,7,Q

Solid (x,x) K,4,9,K


Solid bets, I raise, and he calls. Solid was a bit surprised by my raise and had been playing with me long enough to know I wasn't a loose raiser. This wasn't an easy raise for me since trip Kings was one of the hands I had to put Solid on. But since he didn't reraise on 5th street, I had concluded that he didn't have anyhthing more than 1 pair on 5th street and therefore no better than trip Kings on 6th street.


On 7th street, Solid checked, I bet, and he called. I showed my 5s full and he mucked. I never saw his hand but while we were having a friendly discussion about the dispute (see other topic), I asked him if he had trip Kings and he said he only had Kings-up. I assume he had a pair in the whole and was semi-bluffing on third street.


My main interest is to learn when people start raising and re-raising with rolled-up trips. Should I fire all guns on third street or is it better to wait to 5th street?

Mike Caro suggests, and I agree, that you should raise with trips when it looks natural. So raise with big trips and call with small trips. But this applies to games where you expect to get called even when you DO raise.


Generally, you should start betting when you're chances of getting called is high. Don't worry about "giving away the strength of your hand".


Even at 1-5, there is no problem raising $3 on 3rd street after 3 callers since you expect them to call anyway.


Looks like you played these two hands well; although raising on 4th would represent a straight draw thus getting in more money AND disguising your hand!


My minority opion is this: the "strategy" of mindlessly flailing away with trips until you are obvious beat and then call him down is little worse than the best (and more vinesse) stategy. This means that unless its obvious you aren't going to get called, flail away most of the time.


- Louie

Ordinarily, I would probably venture an opinion and back it up with some numbers, but the best advice I can give is (sorry) "It Depends",


I mean this sincerely. While most believe the addage of "raise with small rolled up trips" as to knock out the straight and flush draws and "slow play large trips" (now here is the kicker) Why, I ask--so that YOU CAN keep as many in and let them draw to straights and flushes? Does not trip 2's as well as trip K's loose to straight? If you hit the full house does not that win over straight/flush?


So you see the answer depends especially on (1) the cards out -live vs dead cards (2) the ability of you to control the other players by raising when the time is correct and (3) knowing when to lay down the trips when you know you are beaten. (4) your assessment of the other players abilities.

It really depends onteh situation, but in a low ante game I tend to just call on fourth street and hope to catch a suited card on my board. In a low ante game you lose very little if anything by slowplaying on third street at least since you want to trap some bets.


Pat

Had trip 6s recently at Mohegan Sun in 1-3 game and just

called the bring in and two limpers in front of me.

New player I'd never seen before just behind me,

showing an ace, put in a max raise and was called

by two of the limpers. I re-raised at this point

and he raised again. The limpers folded and

we played head-up to the river -- with him

betting the max all the way and me calling. I

took the pot with unimproved trips over his

aces-up. Should I have re-raised on 4th/5th

street (he did not make a pair on his board or

show a flush or straight threat)? Not knowing the

player, I put him on aces, but his willingness

to push it so hard made me wonder if he could be

rolled. Had I filled, I'd have re-raised. As it

was, I just called for fear of bigger trips or

a house.

I think the distinction is that with a big set, you don't mind someone making a small set against you.


With a small set, you don't want the to give someone a chance to make a big set against your baby one.


As you pointed out, playing against flush or straight draws when YOU have a set is the same. So the idea of slowplaying or raising is to manipulate the players that are drawing to big cards or pairs.

DEAR PLAYER,

ACCORDING TO ROY WEST,IF YOU HAVE A SMALL SET ON 3RD ST.

2'S-9'S, YOU SHOULD PLAY IT AGGRESSIVELY;LARGE TRIPS,SLOW PLAY

UNTIL 5TH ST.


IN 7-STUD FOR ADVANCED PLAYER,DAVID SKLANSEY SAID IT DOESN'T

MATTER HOW YOU PLAY A 3RD ST. SET--YOU HAVE A STRONG HAND.


YOU DO WANT FLUSH AND STRAIGHT DRAWS IN THERE.

YOU DO NOT WANT LIVE OVERPAIRS IN THERE.

IF YOU ARE HEADS UP AGAINST A SOLID PLAYER,YOU DO NOT WANT

TO RERAISE ON 3RD,NO MATTER HOW SMALL YOUR SET IS.


WAIT UNTIL 6TH ST. TO RE-RAISE A SOLID PLAYER.

AGAINST A TIGHT FIELD,TEND TO SLOW-PLAY ON THE EARLY ROUNDS

--EVEN IF YOU HAVE A SET OF 2'S.

IF THERE IS AT LEAST ONE LOOSE CALLER IN THE GAME,PLAY A SMALL SET AGGRESSIVELY; SLOW PLAY A LARGE SET UNTIL 5TH ST.

Unlock your caps, Bull Man. You're shouting at us.....

You should always try to get at least one raise in. unless you think that by raising you may cause your opponent to fold. This will rarely if ever happen at 1-3. So you should get a raise in and then if checked to you should bet. If you are bet into after you raise you should raise again against most low limit players. At a 5-10 game you should wait until fifth or sixth street to raise again.


Pat

I got my raise in on third street and was

re-raised. But if I read you right, I think

you're implying I could have ventured a re-raise

on 5th or 6th when his board didn't improve.

Partly because he was new and had just sat down

I had no read -- and had just had a full house

snapped for a big pot by four queens, three

of which were down, caught by a player in

literally his first hand at the table. So I

was feeling cautious. Past cards shouldn't be a factor,

but sometimes they are!

The set over set is pretty rare especially rolled up. I think one's ability to figure when someone has caught a set later on should dictate fast or slow play. Your greatest fear is being beaten by a straight or flush. generally trips are not so strong against 4 players as to play slowly. personally, I like to raise in later position especially if there is no Ace showing.


One has 2 additional decisions (1) what does the other player have, and this is based on the ability you have to size that player up by his previous play and (2) what could he end up with-and this is pure math. Remember, a person who calls a raise on 3rd street then pairs his door card on another street (not necessarily on 4th) will show at least trips 50% of the time if he goes to the river.