Adjusting to the antes in Stud

Hi there,


Is there a good rule of thumb on how to figure out the ratio between the size of the antes and the size of the bets in Stud?


I just reread my Roy West book, it states that a 10-20 game with a 1$ ante is a small ante game as opposed to a 20-40 game with a 3$ ante.


When you play 2-4 stud with 0.25$ antes (like on the net), this would be equivalent to a 20-40 game with 2.50$ antes so, as I understand it, a big ante game. Likewise a 1-5$ game with 0.25$ antes. Right?


I understand what you need to do to adjust, I just want to know if I understand these ante/bets things right. I am just starting to understand this stud game.


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

IN POker Europa Review (september 2001), Nic Szemereta, a "big boy" of the European scene, suggested that the ideal sum in all different 7 stud limits should be:


Ante: 10%


Bring-in: 20%


Small bet: 50%


Big bet: 100%


For example in a $5-$10 game, the ante should be $ 0,5, bring-in $1, small bet $5 and big bet $10.


I think this table allows too small antes related to the other bets, what do you think about?


Marco

Marco,


With those percentages, the structure for the $5/10 game would have a $1 ante and a $2 bring-in. The usual structure is a 50 cent ante and a $2 bring-in.


7CS4AP uses the standard $15/30 game, with a $2 ante and a $5 bring-in. In my limited experience, most structured stud games with an ante use something that approaches this. My local room uses the following structures:


$2/4 with a 50 cent ante and a $1 bring-in

$3/6 with a 50 cent ante and a $1 bring-in

$4/8 with a 50 cent ante and a $2 bring-in

$6/12 with a $1 ante and a $2 bring-in

$8/16 with a $1 ante and a $3 bring-in (hasn't been seen since December)

$10/20 with a $1 ante and a $5 bring-in (hasn't been seen since earlier than that)

$15/30 with a $2 ante and a $5 bring-in

$20/40 with a $3 ante and a $5 bring-in

$30/60 with a $5 ante and a $10 bring-in


In all cases except the $8/16, the bring-in is one chip, and in all cases except the $4/8 game, the ante is as close to half a chip as is reasonably possible. My feeling is that the structure used in $3/6, $6/12, and $30/60 is ideal.

It seems to me the 2-4 game has a very high ante. If the game is loose (it probably is since 2-4), this probably means that you will have to get in there with a lot more hands which will add a lot to your fluctuations.


Let's calculate the difference between the ante and the BB. You could do the same with the ante and the SB but since the BB is always twice the SB, it really does not make a difference.


$2/4 with a 25 cent ante (Paradise Poker) >>>> 6.25%

$2/4 with a 50 cent ante >>>> 12.50%

$3/6 with a 50 cent ante >>>> 8.33%

$4/8 with a 50 cent ante >>>> 6.25%

$5-10 with a 1$ ante game >>>> 10.00% (as in Marco's example)

$6/12 with a $1 ante >>>> 8.33%

$8/16 with a $1 ante >>>> 6.25%

$10/20 with a $1 ante >>>> 5.00%

$15/30 with a $2 ante >>>> 6.66%

$20/40 with a $3 ante >>>> 7.50%

$30/60 with a $5 ante >>>> 8.33%


CONCLUSIONS:


** The Paradise 2-4 (25 cent ante), the 8-16, the 10-20 and the 15-30 would be considered sub-normal/smaller ante games. So, you should accordingly play tighter.


** The 3-6, 6-12, 20-40 and the 30-60 would be considered normal/higher ante games.


** The 2-4 with a 50 cent ante and the 5-10 would be considered high ante games.


I don't think games vary that much throughout the world. Notice that some figures come up frequently such as a 6.25 and 8.33.


This was pretty much what I was looking for. A way to determine how big the ante is compared to the bets so I can correctly adjust. This can also be useful in tournament play.


Thanks, any comments appreciated.


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

Sklansky in TOP says that a normal ante size would be between 5% and 15% of "the average future bets", which he seems to define as the small bet. Thus, he says, $0.50 would be normal in a $5-10 game, or $1 in a $10-20 game. Anything less than about $0.50 in the $10-20 game would be small, and anything more than $1.50 would be big. You should include the bring-in in the ante, imo.

I think that this structure does not generate enough bad beats.


I played precisely that structure for several months at the Mirage in Vegas. I averaged $17/hr. for over 150 hrs and never had a losing session except for once.


I wish that I had never moved up to higher limits.

We consider the $15-$30 game with a $2 ante to be the start of real stud as opposed to little stud. So there's your rule of thumb. If the ante is a smaller proportion than it is at $15-$30 think in terms of playing little stud, otherwise think more in terms of knocking people out.


As for your example, a $2-$4 game with a $0.25 ante is like a $15-$30 game with an ante of $1.875 as opposed to $2. That's probably close enough to think in the same terms that you would the $15-$30 and not the $10-$20.

Mason,


Your guideline neglects the relative size of the forced bring-in bet, as well as the amount of the antes (if any) which may be removed from the pot for the house fee. Might a more accurate guideline be based on the ratio of the initial pot size (i.e., the antes plus the forced minimum bring-in and minus the collection when applicable) to the size of the initial full bet (i.e., 15 in a 15-30 game)?


Regards,


Mike