O8 small flush

O8: Reasonably tight UTG raises, is called by two loose players, and I call with 64h43 in the BB. Flop is J75h; I have a small flush. I check, UTG bets (no surprise), one loose fold (surprise), one loose call (no surprise), and I call.


Turn is 9. I check, UTG checks (no surprise), loose bets (no surprise), I raise (UTG is surprised), UTG folds (after a little calculation), loose calls (no surprise). River is a 3. It goes check-check, I scoop with a "flush" and the only "low".


Other than that I should have bet my good-enough-good-enough heads up on the end against a real loose player, how did I do?


- Louie

You played brilliantly after the flop. But why call UTG BTF? What was the format of this game?

Well played, Louie, IMHO.


I don't know as you necessarily made a mistake on the river by not betting your hand. Although giving Too-loose an opportunity to err by betting into you with a straight (or worse) didn't work out for you this time, it might have. In addition, since there is no guarantee Too-loose would have called a bet on the river, (considering he couldn't beat either your non-nut low or your non-nut high), you didn't necessarily lose a big bet by not betting the river.


Finally, although you scooped as it turns out, you could hardly have been certain you had the pot won one way or the other when you checked. You, yourself, have stated more than once on this forum that Omaha-8 is a game of the nuts - and you didn't have them here. Too-loose might easily have beaten you for both high and low. If so, you're stuck calling a raise on the river with your mediocre hand.


I especially like your check-raise on the turn, forcing UTG to face a double bet which might have induced him to fold what would have been the winning low hand, and thus gaining you the scoop.


Well done.


Buzz

Boy, given the glowing comments from Phat and Buzz, two O8 players whose contributions and analysis I respect, I may have to start re-evaluating my starting hand requirements for this game.


I would have dumped this puppy pre-flop without a 2nd thought, Louie. You have middling low cards that beg out for an Ace-deuce flop, somewhat unlikely given the raise and cold callers. You certainly can't be too happy about making a bottom set hand with your pocket 4's. Now you flop a 468th-best flush, which even if currently good is vulnerable to re-draws, and will only get half the pot most of the time at best.


But if you are in this deep with this mess, I suppose the turn check raise is your best? course of action. You quite likely made the pre-flop raiser lay down the winning low hand, but IMO you were very fortunate that one or both of these players didn't hand you your hat with a turn 3-bet. Then would we be hearing about this hand?


Maybe I'm just too nuts-oriented in O8, Louie. Just my thoughts.

Dunc - Thanks. I appreciate your well-worded posts.


Nothing gives a tight player away faster than folding a blind to a raise. You might as well paste a sign on your forehead. In reality, I play a very tight game while, rightly or wrongly, trying to create the illusion of giving action. One way to create that illusion is to almost always play your blind. Of course you can’t do that if your blind is always raised.


Is there a way to prevent your blind from always being raised? Depends on your opponents, of course, but sometimes you can. Read on.


Seven out of eight hands one is dealt are junk, IMHO. Louie’s hand in this thread qualifies as junk.


However, when you fold hand after hand, including raised blinds, your opponents tend to start doing two things, (1) not giving you much action when you do play a hand, and (2) raising your blinds almost every time you post.


Thus if I folded seven out of eight raised hands from the blind, I’d hardly ever get to play an unraised hand from the blind. I’d never accidentally have a great fit with the flop with a hand I wouldn't voluntarily play.


What one does depends on one’s opponents. Most games in which I play have mixes of players of various types, ranging from tight/aggressive to loose/passive. What works well for one type of player and game does not necessarily work well for another.


Gaining the option of seeing an unraised flop from the blind is not usually very expensive for me when playing a typical group of opponents. The price, the every once in a while when my blind is raised, is to usually pay the occasional extra small bet to play a sub-par hand. In games where most players enter the action by limping, the few who enter with an intelligent raise tend to not play many hands. In these games, by usually calling the occasional raise, I avoid always having my blind raised.


Thus, when in the blind, I am usually able to see the flop for the one small bet I have posted. Since any Omaha-8 hand can make the nuts for a scooper, it’s nice to have this option. However, the main advantage of seeing the flop from the blind is that you are seen as playing more hands - thus partially disguising your tight play.


Of course small bets wasted calling with sub-par hands add up. When playing in a tight/aggressive game where there are few limpers, then I agree the blind poster should usually dump sub-par hands to a raise.


Usually, but not always, IMHO. Even in a tight/aggressive game, varying one’s pre-flop play by occasionally calling a raise from the blind with a sub-par hand has advantages. Thus I don’t fault Louie for calling the raise. Depending on the effect on his opponents, Louie could also have folded to the raise.


All things considered, I think Louie played just fine. Didn’t you get a kick out of his check-raise on the turn?


Buzz

I agree there are no nut combinations but I was up against a reasonably aggressive raiser who like to represent good hands (I've seen him raise with A48Q with a small 2-flush) and a guy playing every hand. Neither player will go crazy with raises although both will bet weakly. If I flop a small card I've PROBABLY got the best low and am bound to have a couple weak high draws. Its a short handed pot, I'm getting 5:1 to call against 2 players, I'm actually in perfect position vis-a-vis them, and calling closes the action.


The great situation, IMO, makes up for the weakness of the hand.


The loose player's lack of flop raise pretty much guarantees he's got no flush, and he can certainly be betting a straight draw. The "tight" player's turn check insures he's got nothing yet. Hence my raise.


Yes, I'm very much "nut" oriented as well, but you must seize the occasional opportunity when it arises.


- Louie

Taken in this context, Louie, and also after reading Buzz' comments above, I can see your point. While certain players will agressively "target" my blinds, both in HE and O/8, I usually find that I don't want to go into a gunfight with a knife.


Part of my argument may have been colored by the fact that the O/8 players at West Edmonton Mall are sooooooooo bad that I don't need to defend my blinds to get an edge. For the most part, I just sit back, wait for better hands, bet properly, and get paid off anyway. In a more aggressive game with better opponents, that strategy may be flawed.


By the way, I did like your turn checkraise. At that point, it's pump or dump, and your reasons for doing so were well thought out. I just wouldn't have got there, that's all. Congrats.

It's a weird and wonderful world, and you played the hand alright postflop. Don't even think i would've put half a small bet in with this hand in an unraised pot in the small blind though.

how i might think--


id fold before the flop here.

on the flop id call as louie did

on the trun when utg checks i say he has a low draw and the loose bets so i think he maybe hit a straight, so i check raise as louie did to run off the low draw and play headup against the straight.

on the river i have only a straight to beat so i would bet.


and some of the time id lose to a slightly bigger flush.