Omaha 8 big blind hands

What should be done with those sorts of hands that you wish someone would raise preflop so you can chuck them away. Here is two recent hands i had playing in a Paradise tournament, both in the bigblind.


Hand 1: Ts7c4h4c. 4 players take the flop, which is 4sKsKh. I bet out and get 2 unwanted callers. Notice that there is no good low draw so i am likely up against both other Kings. There is a chance i am up against a spades draw, which is the best possible scenario.


Turn comes 7h putting 2low cards and 2 flush draws out, and i bet again and am called.


River is Qd, which is not a nice card to see. Anyway i bet again, and both call again. I win the pot, but didn't feel comfortable at any stage. This is simply not the sort of hand i ever make out side of the blinds, and i think it usually costs you money.


Hand 2: Js9s4c3d. Flop is Ks8s6s. I bet out and get 3 callers.


Turn is the 3s which is even worse as a low is now likely out, and my flush may well be losing. Nevertheless, i bet anyway, and am called in 2 spots.


River is the Tc i bet are called again by two players. My J9 flush loses to a QT flush, and the other player takes low with a very ragged 45.


What would you do in this sort of situation? Both hands would be chucked away without a thought in any other position, but what should you do when they are dropped in your lap like this? Consider that this is a tournie situation as well, and that i was never raised in either hand.

"Hand 1: Ts7c4h4c. 4 players take the flop, which is 4sKsKh. I bet out and get 2 unwanted callers. Notice that there is no good low draw so i am likely up against both other Kings."


Pete - I think you played your hand perfectly. I don't like low pairs, but having flopped the full house, I think you should bet the flop - and when not raised, also bet the turn, just as you did. When you are not raised on either the flop or the turn, I think you should bet the river, just as you did.


Only four players have taken the flop. There is no guarantee that two of them have kings. Someone with A23X, or an even worse hand after this flop might, perhaps foolishly, continue play.


An opponent with AKQJ (or a similar hand) has ten outs to beat you after the flop. Another opponent with a king and no pair is very likely to have some of the same outs as the first opponent with the king. Between the two opponents, neither of whom has the full house yet, there are probably 10-19 outs to beat you. However, an opponent with AKQQ has only 6 outs to beat you. Some of them are likely to be the same outs as another opponent with a king. Thus your chances may be even better.


Someone with KdKcXX might slow play the hand. (Wouldn't you)? Someone with K4XX would probably raise on the flop, but maybe not.


Even though you lose to someone with KdKcXX, K4XX, or KXYZ with the turn or river being X, Y. or Z, you are the favorite here. I think you should have played your flopped full house aggressively, just as you did.


I would tend to play this hand the same way in a tournament, depending on other various factors.


"Hand 2: Js9s4c3d. Flop is Ks8s6s. I bet out and get 3 callers."


Okay. This is a tough hand to play, but I would tend to bet this flop in a ring game and then see what happens. There are many other considerations in a tournament. I can see betting the flop from the blind in some situations, and not in others.


"Turn is the 3s"


Not a good card for you. You didn't have good low prospects before the turn, but now you have none. Now you are playing for half the pot with the third nut flush and nothing else. Time to back off. Check and fold to the inevitable bet. Don't let anyone know you folded a flush which might have won half the pot.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

i might call after a check and someone bet. most likely the bet came from a low hand. for your chance to get half the pot you will be getting a little over even money for your two crying calls, and id guess its more likely to be split than you are beaten. but it doesnt matter much as you could have checked and folded this hand right on the flop.

Ray - Thanks for responding. I’m still trying to understand how to play hands in Omaha-8 and appreciate all the help you have given me, both by writing your High-Low-Split Poker book and responding on this forum.


You wrote “i might call after a check and someone bet. most likely the bet came from a low hand. for your chance to get half the pot you will be getting a little over even money for your two crying calls, and id guess its more likely to be split than you are beaten. but it doesnt matter much as you could have checked and folded this hand right on the flop.”


Were you writing about Hand 1 and Hand 2, or just Hand 2? I can see checking and folding Hand 2 on the flop, but Hand 1 seems another matter altogether.


I ran through some comparisons for Hand 1 after reading your post. Before doing so, I thought betting a flopped full house, even though it was a poor full house, would be the best way to play. Now I think checking a poor full house would be better. But checking and folding it - rather than checking and calling it? Really?


In Hand 1, since there is only one low card on the flop, low is only possible 312 times out of 990, or roughly, one hand out of three. If Pete has to split this pot, he will only have to split it one hand out of three. Of course Pete would lose to someone with K-K-X-X or K-4-X-X, in addition to someone, especially with K-X-X-X, who might outdraw him, but with this already limited field, isn’t Pete, having flopped even a poor full house, a favorite to win?


If Pete were playing someone with A-K-Q-J heads-up, he would clearly be the favorite, 545 to 355. Ironically, the A-K-Q-J, although the underdog and having only 10 outs, seems to have a more positive E.V. than T-7-4-4. That’s because the A-K-Q-J would bet and/or raise if catching A, K, Q, or J on the turn or the river, and assuming the A-K-Q-J bluffed at or near the correct game theory frequency, Pete should call. Right?


If Pete faced a couple of high draws here, their combined outs would not be much greater, because they would need similar hands to be a threat for high. With a flop of K-K-4, considering Pete has two fours, any other hand competing for high would need a king. A-K-Q-J is one possible hand that could play with a king. Another hand competing for high surely would have a couple of those same cards. K-Q-Q-J, K-Q-J-T and A-A-K-Q are some possibilities. Those hands actually take away outs from each other, rather than increasing the number of outs against Pete. In a Texas hold ‘em game, multiple hands might increase the number of outs, but multiple Omaha-8 hands would not increase the number of outs for high on this flop (K-K-4). Do you agree?


Buzz

Thank you both for your contributions. Buzz thanks for your indepth analysis of these situations, and i think i agree with evrything you say, except for possibly checking the fullhouse. Betting it is as much an attempt to gain information as it is to get money in the pot.


Having the flush hand again, i may well revert to checking and folding, especially once the low card fell. Although this hand may be good enough for half, the pot is not that big yet, and i can find better spots for my money later, where i can aggresively play a hand that is stronger for one end, or a good two way draw.

Buzz, i meant hand two. i hope i made myself understood on that hand and if you agree with me ok as i value your input. on hand one is a clear bet and continue on and hope for the best. the danger in checking is that someone with like a pair of sixes gets a free card.

sometimes i read thru the hands too quickly and miss something so dont take what i say for granted if it sounds wrong as it probably is.

Ray - Thanks again.


Buzz