$3/6 stud hand

Wonderful $3/6 stud game, very loose, generally passive, although there is one very aggressive player in the game. Ordinarily, I wait until all of my cards have been dealt before looking, but on this hand I peek as they come. My first card comes off:


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/qc.gif </center>


I get my hopes up that I might get a playable hand. I look at my next card:


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/qs.gif </center>


Yippee! I <u>will</u> have a playable hand. There are some players against whom I'll fold a big pair if they raise with a bigger card in the door, but alas, none of them made it out that night. :^) I briefly admire my two wired Queens side-by-side. The up-cards are now coming off. None of the cards coming off are higher than my Queens. My up-card comes and it is the


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/qd.gif </center>


Woohoo! We's <font color=red>rolled up</font>! Probably my weakest area in 7CS is remembering the cards that have been folded. This problem is usually compounded when I'm rolled up, probably because what other people have seems somehow less important because, after all, we's <font color=red>rolled up</font>! So some of the details of this hand will be a little sketchy.


The bring-in is two to my right. The next guy limps. I limp. Four others limp. Only seven out of eight of us see fourth street. The


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/qh.gif </center>


falls on some undeserving person across the table from me. I catch the


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/kc.gif </center>


Or maybe it was the King of Spades. I can't be bothered with details--we's <font color=red>rolled up</font>! Another King has fallen, but I'm high on the board. I bet $3. The next two players fold. Hey! Where's everyone going? The next guy raises. Yippee! Action! His board looks a little like this:


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/9c.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/5d.gif </center>


I figure him for two pair or a set, maybe wired Aces, although he probably would have raised with those first round. Whatever he has, it's got nothing on three Queens. I've only played hold'em with this guy, and not much at that, so I don't really know that much about him. There's another fold, and a delightfully awful player now calls. He's showing


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/js.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/tc.gif </center>


He could have almost anything. He's gonna have a little trouble catching a Queen for his straight if that's what he's on. :^) The next guy folds. I don't think that there's any point in slow-playing at this point, so I three-bet. 95o makes it four bets, and JTo thinks better of it and folds. I decide to smooth call so I can pop it on an expensive street.


I check-call on fifth and check-raise on sixth. To my surprise and delight, my opponent re-raises. His board now looks like this:


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/9c.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/5d.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/4h.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/7c.gif </center>


I'm not entirely sure about the order or the suits, although I'm quite sure that the first two were a Nine and a Five, and the other two were a Four and a Seven. Mine looks a bit like this:


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/qd.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/kc.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/8c.gif http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/5s.gif </center>


I make it four bets and he makes it five. I make it six bets, and he just calls. I love it when I get value when we's <font color=red>rolled up</font>! My river card is the


<center>http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/Cards/ad.gif </center>


Seems to me I needed this card on the river a few hands ago. That's what this game is about: Timing. I throw in a value bet, and opponent calls. You're free to comment on the play of the hand, but guess what this guy showed me….


Results later.

What do u use to get these cards? (I'm interested as I have to put them in my net-books)


Returning to the hand, as this is a very loose table he could have anything. But I'd bet he had a rolled trips of 9s.


Marco

Please let us know how to get those grapics.


I didn't like your play that much, but I bet he showed you a straight and took the pot.


I would have slow played and tryed to remember the other player's cards, even though they are of less importance when you're rolled up.


Here are the two flaws in your game. First, you knocked players out too early. With this hand you want to get as many callers for your money as possible. Of course, when you do that you are playing for a full house even though your trips may hold up. Second, you continued to bet strongly even when you failed to make your full house. You must have recognized your opponents straight potential here.


In sum, you probably let greed get in the way of your judgment. This is a two little discussed leak in some people's game as they are alway thinking about pot odds and maximizing their winnings with big hands -- but trip queens is not that big of a hand!


There is a concept in game theory call "minimaxing." It is where you give up a little gain in order to minimize your losses. You tried to maximize your gain when you should have been concerned about what you are up against. Being unaware of what your opponent may have is an even bigger flaw in your play.


Now, tell me he only showed trips, and that my analysis is still right -- and get us those graphics!

Rich,


I strongly disagree that you are looking for as many players as possible with rolled Qs. Well, that's not true. I agree that you want them to come, but that does not mean raising here is incorrect. By raising, it appears as if you have only a pair, especially when the 4th Q drops on 4th street. This means you will often get extra play if you do not develop a threatening board. Suppose another player makes a lower set, you are going to see a raising war like the one that took place in this hand. For many players, a passive call with a Q showing would look very strange, and they should not play it in this manner. By limiting the field, you can increase your chances of winning the pot exponentially, and also sometimes extract a large number of bets from one opponent, rather than spreading it around to 5 and giving yourself a lesser chance of winning the pot.


Also, I do not think the straight could be a consideration here. Given the order of the cards that hit the opponent's board, he would have to be insane to hit the straight on 6th street. You should probably not raise infinitely, as it is a possibility, but keep pumping the pot for awhile. He almost surely has trips, and if he doesn't, the money is coming back before the end of the night.


Only because of the style in which the question was posed, I am guessing the opponent has something disgusting, like a small two pair or buried aces. But I think trips is his most likely possibility.


Mike

Rich you wrote good points but I disagree with you when you sayed "with rolled trips = many callers". The point is that, as Michael pointed out, with many callers you have many people who can take a shot on you whereas against 1 or 2 opponents in the pot you can get the SAME amount of money (it's sufficient a player raising you and you can get 3 bets which equal 3 callers!) but LESS likelihood to be beaten.


Marco

Dick in Phoenix has the cards and instructions on how to use them on his web site. You'll find a link under "Favorite Links" on the left. I cut and pasted the code and made edits without reading his instructions. Anyone who reads the original hand on a text-only browser is going to wonder how so many Aces of Spades wound up in the same deck. :^) I maintain a couple of web sites on geocities and used their editor to make sure everything looked good before posting.


I did rememember most of the other cards that had shown during the play of the hand. My short-term memory is not great, and I tend to compress the information given to me, remembering how many of my suit have shown, how many of the other guy's cards have shown, etc. Admittedly, this is a weakness in my game, but I have enough other strengths, and my opponents are generally so clueless, that I do pretty well. :^)


I think that, fundamentally, it doesn't make that much difference how you play rolled up trips. Betting and raising early can drive people out, true, but it also builds a pot, which may tie them on. My biggest worry is that if I raise right away, I might just win the antes, and this would be a disaster. The texture of this particular game was such that this was highly unlikely, but ante steals do happen in a tight $6/12 game. I strongly considered raising on third street, which would have seemed natural, and probably wouldn't have dropped more than a couple of players. I would guess that about four of us would have seen fourth street instead of seven.


On fourth street, betting the high board isn't too likely to attract attention. KQo is a pretty good board, but it's not terrifying (the one loose cannon was showing KdTd and folded right behind me). When the other guy raises, well, then people are going to fold. I was surprised by the raise, but frankly, even with such a strong hand, I don't mind all of my action coming from one hand, especially if I get as much as I did get. When Rick calls the two cold, I have no reason to believe that he'll fold to an additional raise, or even to a cap (five bets in this room). I can't think of any hand that I'd call two bets cold with and then fold for an additional two bets.


Once Rick folds, the only consideration is how do I get the most money out of this guy. The only thing I can put him on is a small set. Nothing else makes sense, and it never occurred to me to consider any other holding. Obviously, if he makes an open pair, I have to slow down, but until that happens, I'm in the lead, and I want to get as much money in there as I can while I'm a favorite. I'm not sure why I waited until sixth street for the check-raise. It just felt right. When he started jamming on sixth street, I wanted to get all my money in there. No, I wouldn't bet the ranch with this hand, but I would take him down to the cloth. He had about $100 left, and I had about $500 in front of me (my best night ever at $3/6, thank you). It's around 4:1 against him filling, and I can also improve. This is too big an edge not to exploit. Yes, his board showed a possible straight, but would he really be jamming on fourth street with (86)95? It doesn't make sense. Get the money in there!


The river bet is debatable, but I think it's correct. Since I've made the pot big enough that I have to call a raise, I'm laying 2:1. I think this is a good value bet.


I shared this hand with a few people around the card room. I was surprised that some of them guessed correctly. A lady who is one of the few people who has played more low-limit stud in this room than I said, "straight, of course!" A dealer, who oversees these games with perpetual bewilderment, guessed correctly as well. Other folks thought, like me, that he couldn't have anything but a set and maybe filled up on the river. Yes, folks, he was jamming with a gutshot. That's what you want to do with a flimsy draw--drive out your customers so that you don't get paid when you hit. OK, I paid him....He had 866 in the hole. Despite losing $70+ on this hand, I finished up $430 for the night. :^)


If failing to recognize the possibility that this rube might show me a straight is the biggest leak in my game, I can live with it.


Getting back to whether or not you want to be driving people out with trips, unless I have a full house, I'd rather be getting six bets from one person than two bets apiece from three different people, each of whom can draw out on me. Trip Queens is a strong hand, strong enough that it can usually win unimproved, but this is not the first time I've lost to a straight with rolled-up trips (it's the fifth, I've also lost with rolled-up Kings to Jacks full). I will relay a $4/8 hand I played a while back. There was a loose cannon in the game, raising almost every hand on third street. He raises with an Ace in the door. I have (87)7. This is not a hand I usually call a raise by an Ace with, but he doesn't need Aces for this raise, not by a longshot, and I did have the promise of multi-way action if I hit something. Six or seven of us see fourth street. I make an open pair of Sevens and bet the full $8. I get a caller and it's folded around to the raiser who raises showing AQ. It's folded to me and I reraise. The original caller calls the two cold and AQ raises again. I cap it, and the other guy now drops (what hand is worth three bets but not two more?). With the cap now removed, the AQ raises again, and I just call. After all, even maniacs get trips sometimes. My next card is an Eight, giving me a full house. He catches a Three. I have the current nuts, and while he can fill, the odds are very much with me. I check, he bets, I check-raise, he re-raises, I raise again, and he thinks better of it and calls. Afterwards, I thought that I would have gotten more money by betting out on fifth, as he might have waited another round or three to slow down. Sixth and seventh streets go bet-call and my full house is good. He apparently had two pair, Aces and Queens. I took over $100 off of this one guy on this hand. Now I ask you, do you think that I would have made more money if I had kept other people in? I really don't think so.

Personally I like to raise and reraise on 3rd st with rolled up trips. The pots I win are smaller but I win them more often . John..

Andy, I like reading your logic, but I still wouldn't have played it like you did. The second hand you rely is much different from the first: you weren't rolled up, and you had only trip sevens not queens. With sevens, you should probably play it fast and avoid tying the other players to the pot if you can. Still, my main point about how you played trip queens is this:


It's not just how much money you win. You should also consider how much you risk. Knocking players forced you to risk more money for a similar gain. Yes, with more players in the pot, your chances of being drawn out on are higher; but the the increased risk is worth it considering the strength of your hand and the odds you are getting from each call. Ramming and Jamming is ok if you have position and can manipulate the other players to call. You could have risked thirty dollars to gain $140 rather than risking $70.


As for your surprise, in low limit, never be surprised. Many players will raise with three to a flush or straight. I can't say that your logic in reading him was incorrect, but your read certainly was. You need to put him on a range of hands and don't assume other players play like you. I watched low limit players from the rail, and it is truely unbelievable the hands they play, and raise with.


Just trying to help.


Rich

Rich,


OK, the second hand was a bit different from the first, but I cited it to show that it's possible to win a big pot against a lone opponent. I do think I maximized my profit on that hand. True, I could probably have won a good-sized pot with less risk had I played it a little slower, but I don't mind risking $100 to win $100 when I have a big edge, and I had a big edge on that hand. I thought I was getting my money in with a similar edge on the Queens hand. I don't think that having more people in and risking less money to win the same amount is necessarily better than knocking people out, as you have the increased risk of being out-drawn. I think, percentage-wise, you're probably about the same, although my way is probably higher variance. I didn't especially want to knock anyone out on either hand, but I didn't mind that much that I did. I really don't think that failing to take the straight possibility into account means I played it badly.


Actually, the two hands aren't that different. The only hands that Trip Queens beats that Trip Sevens doesn't also beat are Trip Eights, Nines, Tens, and Jacks. How worried are you about those four specific hands? You're most vulnerable to straights and flushes. And I don't think that being rolled up is that much different from hitting trips on fourth street, except that in the second example, it was extremely obvious to everyone except the other participant what I had. In both hands, I started jamming on fourth street with the best hand. Of course, I was getting big bets on the Sevens hand.


You are significantly more risk-averse than I am. I don't think you'd dispute this. I have a style that suits me, and you have a style that presumably suits you. I make a little money playing this game (and promptly lose it playing hold'em, tournaments, hold'em tournaments, etc.), and you just might too. We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this, and that's OK. If you read the Medium Stakes Hold'em forum, there are some widely differing opinions by informed, winning players on a variety of topics, and different people make different things work for them. I used to <u>always</u> slow-play trips, and I've been burned enough that I don't do it as much. I do play it a bit slow sometimes (I did limp first round on the Queens hand), but not like I used to, and it works for me, overall. If you want to wait 'til the expensive street, fine. It probably doesn't make that much difference anyway.


And on the Queens hand, I don't think there was $140 to be made no matter how I played it. :^)

Come to think of it, I don't really mind your reraise, but only after everyone has called. I would play rolled up trip queens aggressively, too, but only if I was assured of callers. We both agree that everyone folding and leaving you with just the antes would be a disaster. That's what I fear, and I don't like it much against one player either. So it's not really clear who's more risk adverse: you knocking players out with trip queens or me allowing them to stay in. In either case, this exchange has been helpful to both of us, because it has made us think.


Rich


P.S. I just won a small stud tourament saturday, so I'm now a winning ring game player and a winning tourament player. I also tend to win at hold'em as well. I'm still a small stakes player.