Pot Limit Omaha 8 Monster

Pot limit game i am in the cutoff seat holding AsAcKsQc. There are 2 limpers early, a raise in middle poistion (for this player always meaning A23 or A2 with a suited A), i call, the big blind calls as do the 2 limpers, so 5 have seen the flop.


Flop is a perfect AhJcTc, giving me the nut broadway straight, trip Aces, and the nut flush draw. The big blind bets (almost certainly has the straight), one limper calls, the preflop raiser hesitates and then calls, then i raise. The big blind reraises, knocking out the other two, and i raise again, with the big blind calling allin.


Turn is 6d, river is Jh and i take the pot with my Aces full.


Would i have been better not to have raised on the flop, and drawn the other players in for another round of bets before raising on the turn?


I figured it was best to eliminate any hands with low possibilities straight away, and also to get the big blind to put in all his money while he still had the nuts, in case a club or pair fell on the turn, as he is unlikely to call a pot sized bet at that point.


Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

"Would i have been better not to have raised on the flop, and drawn the other players in for another round of bets before raising on the turn?"


Nothing is certain. However, since you put the Big Blind on the straight, you might have expected the re-raise. Your consideration might perhaps have been the effect of a double bet on the other players.


If you expected the other players to fold to a double bet, yes, you should have waited for the turn. However, if you expected the other players to call the double bet, then you made the correct move.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

I guess your are not tempted to 3 bet B4 the flop with your monster.


Unless YOU have the nut back-door low draw or you are SURE your raising buddy must have one, you should NOT slow-play monster highs when there is one low card out there. Make them pay, make them drop. Don't even think about it, even with quads.


- Louie

Right!

Would i have been better not to have raised on the flop, and drawn the other players in for another round of bets before raising on the turn?


I disagree slightly with the other posters, but a lot depends on stack sizes. I call on the flop if I have BB on the straight. I am hoping for another low card on the turn. If a low card comes on the turn, BB is sure to bet and there may be two callers w/ low draws. I can go to the center and get it all in. With so much out there, the draws may chase along. The worst that can happen is that I get my money back, but I've got draws to take half of a four way pot, and draws to take the whole thing. I don't want the lows out on 3rd or 4th streets if I can keep them chasing. As a general rule, if I flop a monster high hand in PLO8, I'll wait for a 2nd low card before making my move.

"As a general rule, if I flop a monster high hand in PLO8, I'll wait for a 2nd low card before making my move."


Exactly. This is <u>pot limit</u>. No one will have proper odds to draw for low if you bet the pot on the turn. Thus all you have to do is bet the pot if a second low card appears on the turn. If you trap a foolish player into drawing against the odds, so much the better.


This hand is so strong that you can afford to slow play it in a pot limit game. You have the current nuts (probably tied by BB), with redraws for the nut club flush and the nut full house. There may be some mild fear of being beaten by a straight flush or quads here, but those kind of beats are very rare and should not dominate your thinking here.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

My mistake. If you put womeone on A-2-X-X and someone else on K-Q-X-X, and if the turn was a 6, someone with 2-3-4-X would have proper odds (barely) to call a pot sized bet on the turn. If P is the size of the pot before the pot sized bet on the turn, then the cost to the low draw would be P and the gain, if low materialized, would be 0.5P, making the pot odds 2 to 1. The card odds would be 23 to 11, making the call slightly favorable. My mistake.


Even so, I'd still wait for the turn to make my move.


Buzz

The odds are unlikely to be favourable for a low hand to continue with a draw if a low card drops (as it did) due to positional considerations.


The low draw was caught in the middle of the big blind and myself on the button. Surely the big blind would bet out, and would be facing a raise from behind if he called, and the bets were getting very big by this stage (approximately 140 times the big blind, with fear of a reraise).


I don't know about you but theres no way i would make that call, i'd just sit back and find a better spot for my money. This is part of my reasoning for not trying to suck a low draw in. The other reason is the risk of pushing out the bigblind if one of my draws comes on the turn.


Only my 3rd time playing pot limit, so i don't profess to know it all, but i would like to know what you think of my above reasoning.

you said that one of the hands which preflop raiser could have was "A,2,3" lets suppose that his fourth card was a 6.


thus after the flop he would have a nut low draw, and a shot at a full house.....which makes it rather easy for him to call any bet


that is an example of why you thought of getting low draws out of the hand was CORRECT


yes, perhaps you could have made a little more , but in trying you could have lost half the pot to a low


I am not one to do a lot of raising on a drawing hand, but your's was so powerfull that it seems the right thing to do


I score your play 100%

"I don't know about you but theres no way i would make that call, i'd just sit back and find a better spot for my money. This is part of my reasoning for not trying to suck a low draw in. The other reason is the risk of pushing out the bigblind if one of my draws comes on the turn."


I wouldn't make the call either.


Your reasoning makes sense.


You were right to want to get all of BB's money in the pot while both you and BB had the temporary nuts - before you made your re-draw. Since you got BB to go all-in and were reasonably safe while doing so, you might have played the hand optimally.


I think I still would generally wait for the turn to raise, maybe checking the turn if the board paired or flushed with the nine or king of clubs on the turn, hoping to trap on the river. If any one of the seven low clubs comes on the turn, BB may be likely to check, as will probably the intervening players. If you bet the pot at that point and get two callers, you may do better, even if the river enables low. If any non-club low card comes on the turn, then BB will bet the pot and any nut-low-draw has to worry about a raise from you and also getting quartered.


The danger, as you have pointed out, is that the turn may pair (or flush) the board and BB, not having the nuts anymore, will check and then fold to your bet. And of course you are vaguely worried about someone having a one-out-quads or one-out-straight-flush draw. You want to limit the field on the flop to make this possibility less likely. You don't worry about that possibility in limit-Omaha-8, because it only costs you one or two big bets when it happens, but it seems a more important consideration in pot-limit where someone holding a pair of jacks can make it very, very expensive for you when the jack comes on the river.


One can make a good case for playing it exactly as you did.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

Jellow - "Thus after the flop he would have a nut low draw, and a shot at a full house.....which makes it rather easy for him to call any bet"


Yes, but if he makes the full house he is <u>trapped</u>.


Buzz

"I don't know about you but theres no way i would make that call, i'd just sit back and find a better spot for my money. This is part of my reasoning for not trying to suck a low draw in. The other reason is the risk of pushing out the bigblind if one of my draws comes on the turn."


I wouldn't make the call either.


Me neither, but there was a bet and two calls on the flop. I wouldn't call there without the nuts and redraws to more nuts. What could they have? I suspect we have a couple of live ones.


The danger, as you have pointed out, is that the turn may pair (or flush) the board and BB, not having the nuts anymore, will check and then fold to your bet.


If you call on the flop in order to take a card off, four things can happen after the turn.


The BB can remain and the Low Draws (LD’s) can remain.


The BB can drop and the LD’s can remain.


The BB can remain and the LD’s can drop.


The BB can drop and the LD’s can drop.


You have 4 cards, there are 3 on the flop, you have the BB on KQ, so there are 43 unknown cards. I categorize the 43 as follows:


15 cards. BB remains/LD’s remain: 8, 7, 6, 5, 4 not clubs.


5 cards. BB drops/LD’s remain: 8c, 7c, 6c, 5c, 4c.


13 cards. BB remains/ LD’s drop: K, Q, 9, 3, 2 not clubs. (It’s interesting to note that if a K or Q comes, there is no draw for low, but the number of 2-card combinations that make Broadway increase from 4 to 16, so this might creat another chaser from the LD’s.)


10 cards. BB drops/ LD’s drop: A, J, T, 9c, 3c, 2c.


The worrisome scenario of calling on the flop, then not getting anymore action will happen 10/43 of the time. What’s at stake?


Let’s say you just call the flop. The Pot is now = P.


If one of the first 15 cards comes, BB is sure to bet P, two callers, you call P and raise 5P, BB calls 5P. We’ve now two LD’s, one getting 3:1 and the other 4:1. You may have a 25 P pot with 10 outs to take it all, and six more clubs that lock up high with more betting to come.


If one of the second 5 cards comes on the turn, you could be looking at 5th street with high locked up, 4P in the pot and possibly more betting.


If one of the third 13 cards comes, you will still get BB all in with a draw for the whole thing.


If one of the last 10 cards comes, you end up with the measley 1P.


None of this can be calculated accurately without knowing the stack sizes, but the big bucks in PLO8 come from opponents who chase. I think Mr. Peterson is correct in condemning chasing, but if this is only his 3rd PLO8 game, he may have some amazement in his future. Situations like the one you were in don’t come that often. I think you’ve really got to consider letting the draws in here.


Just another opinion :>


Mack

If i just call the pot stands at P. As it was I called and raised the pot to 2P, the BB called to 3P and reraised to 6P, then i called to 12P and reraised about 4.5P to get him allin for a 21P size pot, whilst elimintating the threat of being quartered, or possibly losing the whole pot if i let a low draw stay and they catch a backdoor hearts flush (i know this wouldn't have happened but it might of).


Also there is a risk that the big blind had a made low and a low draw such as KQ23 but knowing the player it was extremely unlikely he would call with such a hand for a raise with the risk of a limmp reraise out there. It turned out he had KQJT, and thought he was freerolling against me and had won when he made Jacks full on the river.


Any a 21P seems a hell of a lot better than maybe getting a 4P pot and possibly losing 3/4s depending on the cards to come.


Like to know what you think.

It seems to me that in pot limit this might be a mistake since the original bettor will likely reraise and drive out all others leaving you with a monster against a short stack. There is now no-one to make any huge mistakes against you. You essentially win the antes plus the short stack. It is aso possible that your opponent holds A2KQ and you lose (quartered) to most lows if comes and you do not make a flush.


On the turn if a small card comes you can re-raise the small stack and put huge pressure on any low draw to fold.


In a structured game the raise is fine since the betting only doubles and letting a low in cheap could be a mistake.

Actually with A2KQ he cannot make a low. KQ23 he could. But the Big blind was actually the third deepest player at the table, behind myself and one other not in the hand. This is another reason for thrying to get the draws out.

Yes of course 23QK. If you were winning a large amount from BB then your playing looks like a strong play.


Thanks

How much did the other two players have in front of them?