Stud hi/lo/8 - Throwing Away a Wheel Draw

Very loose 6-12 7 stud hi/lo/8 game. I am in seat 7 and pick up <U>Ac 2d</U> 3s. The 2c on my left in seat 8 brings it in for $2; the upcards around the table are


Kd Qd Ks 6s 3h Tc 3s(me) 2c.


The 6s and 3h limp in, with the paints folding. I also limp. 4 handed to 4th street.


4th street:


<U>X X</U> 6s 3c


<U>X X</U> 3h Jh


<U>Ac 2d</U> 3s Jc (me)


<U>X X</U> 2c 5d


First J3 checks, I check, it's checked around for a free card.


(Side question: if there is a bet, should I call here? I generally fold with 3 low cards and a paint on 4th street, but I do have 3 wheel cards.)


5th street:


<U>X X</U> 6s 3c 6d


<U>X X</U> 3h Jh 5h


<U>Ac 2d</U> 3s Jc 4d (me)


<U>X X</U> 2c 5d 6c


The pair of sixes bets, the 3-heart board calls, and I look around. The good news is that I have a wheel draw. The bad news is twofold: (a) looking at the 3 very live hearts, my straight draw might not win high, and (b) my draw for low is not live, with 2 fives and 3 sixes out.


I threw this hand right in the muck! Does everyone agree that this is a lousy draw?


Caution: BLASPHEMY and HERESY to follow:


I think that there are many times when a wheel draw is overrated. I know that most of my opponents think of it as the Holy Grail, and would never ever fold a wheel draw before 7th street.


The main problem is that, with the single exception of 2345, your straight draw to win high is only an inside draw, with a maximum of 4 outs. And it can also be a bad draw for high if there are flush draws, higher straight draws, or trips out against you.


You also have to consider how good your low (that you are still drawing to) has to be to win, by looking at your opponents' boards. In my hand above, I can't be sure that a 7 low will be good enough, even though there are more live sevens (4) than live sixes and fives combined. All 3 opponents have 6 or 5 high boards.


I do want to clarify that if you have a wheel draw with something else of value - a made high or low - then it is priceless. Examples would be 542AAA or A2457. Now you can hopefully jam with your made hand and have a draw at the wheel for going for the scoop.


Comments?


Dick

I'd fold. The pot's not big enough to make this hand worth pursuing, there are too many dead cards, and the hand behind you could be preparing to raise with his made low. It could easily be 3 bets by the time it gets back to you.

well you have about 11 outs maybe with about 38 cards left, not too shabby. with no bets on 4th street id think that there was no other low draw against you and the two high hands look like trash as well. the downside is the pot isnt real big so decide from there.

You need to call here because no one bet on 4th which makes it unlikely you are up against a made low or made flush. If there is a made low it's probably an 8. Had the 256 bet on 4th I would fold.


Regards,


Paul Talbot

I agree that the lack of action on 4th makes this hand playable. In fact buying an Ace may be good enough for high, so you have a few outs, and Aces with a 7 low could be a powerful holding.

Dick, this is similar to the hand you posted the other week. IMO you play far too passively. Why didn't you raise on third here, for example?


In both this hand and the one from last week, you should've put in every raise you could.


However, you did play the rolled up tens right! :)