The Play vs. The Players

At low limits, I'm starting to conclude that the latter is as (or more) important than the former. As a roughly breakeven player of $1-3, $1-5 and $2 4 stud, online and in casinos, I believe that in games where most of the players are good to competent I am a small loser. In games where some of the players are spectacularly bad -- loose and oblivious -- I am a small winner.


I think this is more important at low limits than at higher ones because the rake is much higher vs. the pot sizes. In extreme cases, like $1-3 or $2-4 he, you are losing 10%. In essence you have to be 10% better than the table on average to have a winning expecation long term. So a predictable, weak tight or loose passive player can be a tough opponent for me in these games, simply because I may be slightly ahead of that player's thinking, but not enough to overcome the rake. Throw in a couple of really good players and my average edge plummets. In higher games, the rake is much less as a percentage, meaning you need a lesser edge over the other players to beat it.

with different players in a public cardroom or casino,the play in the lower limit games is more important than the players.

The main reason is that U are playing MOSTLY with recreational players.

In the higher limit games,the players become more important than your play--although both your play and the players U are playing against are important.

It is true that U have a better reduced rake % relative to the pot size in higher limit games,but U will encounter much better caliber of players,on the average,then U will in the lower limit games.

Hence,a solid low-limit player will usually have such a high edge against the field that he will still be able to be a consistent winner even with the large rake relative to the pot size.

Since U might not have a player's edge in the higher limit games,the small relative size of the rake will still not be enough for U to be a consistent winner.


Happy pokering,

Sitting Bull

Just some of the reasons why Game Selection is so important.


CJ

Yeah, CJ, I agree. Usually, I try to walk around and look at the games at Mohegan or Foxwoods. But since I only play occaisonally (once a month or less) it's tough to tell which might be "good" in just a few minutes of observation. Also, if there's a wait, I tend to take the first seat that comes up, then if I don't like the game I'll ask to move. It seems like it's easier to move between limits -- ie. from $1-5 to $1-3 than within limits. And the floor is generally not particularly eager to help.


Sadly, I disagree with what Larry says. I find many players who are not terrible in these games. Many have a lot less poker knowledge but they play every day in the same game, with many of the same people and while they may be losers for life, they don't give up enough edge in playing knowledge to make up for my lack of regular play and the rake. Add in good players, many of whom have read as much or more as me and played much more. There are often one or two of these in a game and they are negative EV pre-rake for me. Any tips on game selection, particularly at Mohegan and Foxwoods, are appreciated. btw, Pat, I'm planning on trying $5-10 at Foxwoods with the last of my online winnings.

MRB,


I know I have told you this, but you should be able to beat any of those $1-5 games easily.


Let me know when you are going up there again to play. Perhaps we can meet. Assuming I can get some time away from work.


CJ

Nice of you to say that, but it has definitely not been the case. I've consistently lost in those games. My wins have come at $1-3 and $1-5 no ante and $2-4, .25 ante online. I do feel the very high ante structure of the $1-5 at Foxwoods/Mohegan rewards looser play, which isn't my natural style. But I also feel that low limit games, especially this one where the cost of sitting is quite high, will have higher variance. The reason is that players generally make more calling errors vs. folding errors at low limits, so you are often playing against a "field". This means you will win less hands, but take down bigger pots when you do win. I will be playing a short $1-5 session, probably at Foxwoods, tomorrow (Thursday), probably

between around 4:30 and 8.

the ante in your 1-5 game?

U said that u can beat the 1-5 no ante game. Y don't U just play those games that u can beat? Build up your bankroll to then play 5-10 .50 ante.


If the ante in 1-5 is .50,I do not believe I can beat this game either. I would prefer to play in a 5-10 or 10-20 game with .50 and 1.00 antes respectfully.


Happy pokering,

Sitting bull

I hear you Bull, and I'm thinking of doing just that. But CJ says he beats these games like a rented mule. And I believe him.


Larry, am I correct in thinking that you are tossing small pair, small kicker/low-three flushes with a couple of dead cards unless you are late in and can just limp with two or three others? Am I correct in thinking you are extremely lineup conscious? Am I correct in thinking you try to read the players and pick up tells? When do you raise? When do you checkraise? When do you call along? In short, what are YOUR keys to winning at low limits?

MRB,


well unfortunately there is no way in hell I will be able to make it up there tomorrow. Monday's are usually the best time for me to make it up there. ( or Sunday's to ) Let me know if you go up during those days.


CJ

Will do. My trips are often on the way to Cape Cod where my family has a vacation home. That's the case this time. But I do go every now and then with another friend, also a "serious" low limit player. We'll probably do a trip in early October and might be playing during the day on a Sunday.

i think there is an overemphasis on "the player" at low limits, as if knowing the player can turn the wrong play into the right one. teh fact is that "the player" is an important part of card reading and is a significant factor. but if the thesis is that it is more important to know the players than it is to know what the right play is in a given situation regardless of the player then i think that is wrong and dangerous.


most of your win at low limits will come from having a strong basic strategy that allows you to make less mistakes than your opponents. for example a novice player who is in last position with a pair of queens might raise after there are five callers. a better player will recognize that a raise is wrong since it makes the pot so big that your opponents are not playing wrong to call the whole way. this type of play is the bedrock of successful low limit play and has nothing to do with the players.


please dont misunderstand and think that i am saying that knowing the players is imporatant. but it is much more important to have a strong strategy and to know the "play."


Pat

your questions.


I NEVER see 4th Str. with a small pair/small or medium kicker if ANY of my cards are semi-dead.

If there is an aggressive player in the game,I toss ALL small and medium pairs away UNLESS I have an OVERCARD to the board. However,I do not play any semi-dead cards in this spot if an aggressive player tends to raise 3rd Str. frequently.--EVEN if I do have a "live" "A" kicker.

When there is a loose-aggressive player in the game,several other players tend to take off a card on 3rd. It would be difficult to try to reduce the field in this case.


If I'm in a passive game--loose or tight,I will play a small live 3-flush in any position. If the game is loose-aggressive,I will also play any live 3-flush because I know that there will be several players staying in on 3rd AND being tied onto 4th and 5th if I obtain my draw and complete my flush. If I improve in anyway on 4th,I'll continue .

Yes,U are correct about my awareness of the lineup.

There are two or three players that I hate to play with because of their aggressiveness.

If more than one of these players are in a game,I go to another table.

For me,working on "tells" and "reading" players is an ongoing struggle. But I do continue to make attempts to improve my game in these areas.

I raise on 3rd when I have a big pair and no more than one overcard is showing in other players' hands. I sometimes raise with two live big overcards on 3rd to reduce the field and improve my chances of winning.

If I think that I am "boss' on 3rd,I NEVER give a free card--even if the game is tight. However,I will adjust my betting so that I will obtain some action from at least one other opponent.

In these recreational low-limit games,it's not necessarry to very your plays because U will usually receive some action from one or two players.

After all,these players did not come all the way to the casino to fold their hands; they are here to play.

In the spread limit game,I usually bet 2/5BB if I have a very strong hand and I believe my opponent has a good hand where he will raise my 2/5BB.

I'm convincing my opponent that I have a decent hand , but I'm trying to see the showdown "cheaply". Hence,that's Y I did not bet 1BB.

He "knows" that I'm trying to see his "good" hand for a discount and proceeds to raise me. I then pop him back. Even though he knows he's beat,he will still pay me off at these limits.

Hence,I very seldom checkraise with a strong hand.

If I'm heads-up against a player who trys to determine what I have,I sometimes make a play on him if he's NOT a calling station.

For example,if I'm showing three suited cards on the board,but my hand consists of one small pair,I'll represent a flush. Usually, he will fold one pair.

However,if he has two-pairs,he will usually call me down.

I generally call when the betting is 2/5BB or less and I have a live backdooor draw and several players are in the pot.

But only if I perceive that by making the draw,I will probably win the pot.

However, I must always have some potential of winning the pot---this means NOT playing semi-dead cards--

and semi-dead draws.

Yes,for the last 2000 hours of play,I have been averaging about 1BB/Hr. But the reason is NOT that I play well; it is that MOST of my opponents play very badly.

If many of these opponents would make small adjustments against me,my hourly rate would drop.


If I'm on a "roll" for a given number of sessions,I continue to go to the casino to play(20 min. drive). When I encounter a losing session of about 20BB's,I stay away for a few days to determine what I did wrong.

Yes,that's correct. Usually the big lossing session was a result of my playing exceptioally bad. Instead of losing 10BB's,I usually play poorly and donate another 10BB's.

*******************

Be very carefull on the early streets.

Tend to fold more . On the later streets,tend to call more(6th and 7th) If U frequently fold 6th or 7th ,but play 5th,U are usually making a bad play on 5th.

Even if U are ALMOST sure U are beat,call for the "size of the pot" on 6th or 7th if the game is loose and the pot is offering U something like 6 to 1 or better.

***********

On the early rounds--3rd and 4th--if a player re-raises your split A's,fold. He "sees" what U are playing. He would not re-raise U at these limits if he did not have a set.

Continuing to tag along with this hand will usually cost U 5BB's.

Give it up1

Don't forget. Players at these limits usually have what they are representating.

On the early streets,if they show strength,assume that they have the "goods'.

Of course,if a pattern developes with a particular player,U must take a stand.

U will also need the discipline,patience,and control to continue to be a winner.

In addition,U will need a decent bankroll or a recurring source of income to replenish your bankroll.

I have 600BB's for my bankroll,

I will probably never increase the size of my 'roll' because I use the extra winnings to pay some bills and to take a couple of mini-vacations per year with my lady friend.

I can honestly say that without my poker winnings,I would have to see for a part-time job to supplement my current income from my investment and pension check.

But,thank God,I can peacefully sleep until noon(LOL)!

However,my "nut" is very low.

I have no family,car note,mortgage note,etc.

I hope that I have answered some of your questions.

If U have additional questions for me,do not hesitate to ask.

Happy pokering!

Sitting Bull