When is it ever Correct?????

Hello again all,


Well rather than posting the situation that happened to me ( at Foxwoods, where else does shit happen to me )... I just want to ask the forum a question..cause maybe I'm missing something here.


Here it goes...


When is it correct ( if ever ) for a DEALER to turn a players cards over?


CJ

Frankly, I think it would be better for you to describe the events, and then ask us whether the dealer's action was appropriate.


I believe that the exact rule may vary from room to room, but in general, any player at the table may ask to see any hand involved in a showdown. The purpose of this rule is to prevent collusion. I've seen people ask to see hands perhaps 100 times, and I don't think that collusion was suspected in any case. So what happened?

I'm not referring to IWTSTH. (although I wish that rule would get tossed in the toilet )


No one asked at all for any cards to be turned over.


CJ

Well, in that case, I don't think there is ever any reason for a dealer to turn a player's cards over, unless he's stepped away from the table and the dealer mucks his hand, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. So what happened?

Andy,


I will post what happended, but I am waiting for a few responses to the actual question...


I agree with you.. I think the only times a dealer should ( usually ) touch a players cards are..


1) when dealing

2) when retrieving them for the muck


and, in my opinion, the only time a dealer should turn a players downcards UP.. is..


1) when ALL opponents cards are mucked, and lone opponent hasn't shown all 7 cards to receive pot.

2) when ALL opponents cards are mucked, and some idiot wants to use the IWTSTH rule.


CJ

The rule allowing anyone in the hand to request to see the hands at the showdown is NOT meant to prevent collusion. In fact, this purpose can be easily thwarted simply by folding the hand to a bet on the end. Once the hand is folded to a bet, one is not allowed to ask to see the folded hand. The colluding players need only make sure that one of the players bets or raises on the end allowing his confederate to fold the hand.


This is the rule. It true purpose, believe it or not, is to allow players to gain information. Just like paying to see if your opponent has the goods, every player at the table is allowed to see what each player has at the showdown.


That's the logic. If everyone checked, or if anyone called the bet, everyone at the table has a right to see the hands of the players still in the game.


I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's the rule. Players are not allowed to overuse the rule, and the house often reserves the right to refuse to honor a request if it deems that the rule is being overused.


Therefore, I use the rule, because I can. I gain information when I ask to see the hand. That's what the rule is designed for, so I use it. It's not really that great for preventing collusion, but it does help me get a bead on how other players play their hands.


Steam away!

it doesnt surprise me that you had a problem there. the dealers there are perhaps the worst anywhere. half of them barely shuffle the cards.


as far as your inquiry i think it is tough to answer in a vacuum. as i understand it you are not asking a rules interpretation question, so the answer depends on the situation. but i would say it should never happen if the player is still at the table and is physically capable of turning his cards over. if it is a situation where he one player asked to see anothers cards and the other refused the dealer should call a floorman but should not touch the cards.


Pat

Rich,


Every casino employee that I have ever talked to about the IWTSTH rule has said that its intended purpose is to prevent collusion. Every magazine article that I have read on the subject has said that its purpose is to prevent collusion. You are the second person I have ever seen suggest that its purpose is to allow players to get a line another player's play. Why would a casino have this rule in place to allow people to get a line on other players' play? All it does is antagonize people and get them out of the gambling mood. If for no other reason, this is why I think that you shouldn't invoke the rule either. You are correct that the rule does little to prevent collusion, which is what makes it a bad rule.

I actually had a big discussion a supervisor at the Bike. Those guys are usually nothing more than arrogant bullies. Anyway, he corrected me about the rule, and that's how I learned that it's not intended to prevent collusion.


I can live with or without the rule. But I will use it occasionally if I think it will help me. I find that people may get upset for a little while, but they go back to their usual ways soon thereafter.

To me, getting upset at someone for acting within the rules is ridiculous. If someone doesn't like a rule, they should take it up with the person that makes the rule, not the person who invokes or enforces it. If someone invokes the rule and asks to see my hand, I turn it over and smile. On the rare occassion when I invoke it and another player gets angry, well, thats his problem, and I suppose everyone else at the table probably benefits from the other player going on tilt.


For you football fans, this reminds me of the non-fumble by Tom Brady in the snow game between the Patriots and Raiders last January. The rule which governed the play--the "tuck" rule--clearly provides that the play in question was not a fumble. Many people--most of them Raiders fans--said the replay official made a terrible decision, and complained that the tuck rule was not a good rule. They lost sight of the fact that regardless of whether or not the rule was "good", it was in fact the applicable rule, and it is the duty of the officials to enforce the rules, not to make judgements about whether or not they are "good" rules.

The problem is that there is really no one to go to, and if you try to go to the poker room management, they don't care. They think we're all sick anyway. There's no mechanism to change the rule, so people complain about the rule in the hope of formenting dissent about the rule.

Hello Again All,


Here is what happened.


A rather large pot was developed ( due in part to lots of raising with my pocket Aces).


On sixth street it was heads up with me and SUPER FISH.


River.. I made two pair and bet and fish called.


I showed my aces-up. Super-fish turns over one of his cards showing one pair. He nods at me ( meaning good hand ) He pushes the remaining cards to the dealer.


The jackass dealer then TURNS-UP my opponents other two cards and then calls a flush for him. ( opponent didn't know he had it ) Dealer starts pushing pot to him.


I EXPLODED ( again at a FW dealer ) and asked why a dealer would turn a players cards over when not asked? Dealers response was 'that he has too when there is a called bet'.


Now that was news too me, I have been playing long enough to know. ( I also know it was BS given to me by the dealer ) I posted my original question b4 this story cause I really want a 'technical' answer as to when a dealer is supposed to touch cards. ( I also posted above what/when I think he should )


I have been screwed by Foxwoods dealers for the last time. ( some of you I'm sure know my famous IWTSTH story ) So now I'm screwing them. Never again..NEVER..am I tipping a dime in that place again. ( dealers share tips there for those of you who don't know ) I figure in the long run, I'm getting that pot back and a whole lot more.


I have played cards in a good many places across the country, and I really think its kind of sad, that in the biggest casino in the world, they have the biggest jerk-offs for dealers.


I really do miss living in Arizona.


CJ

So move back to AZ already.


/images/smile.gif


I really don't see why you couldn't tell us what happened in the first place. Of course the dealer acted improperly. Does he turn up every hand at the river when someone tries to muck? He should only have turned the hand up if asked, and depending on the rules there, should probably have "killed" the hand before doing so. I don't know what the rules are there, but at Canterbury Card Club, a dealer isn't supposed to turn a player's cards down either. If a player pushes his hand towards the dealer without turning his upcards down, the dealer isn't supposed to muck it. He's supposed to instruct the player to turn his own cards up or down. In practice, most dealers will muck the hand anyway, but there are some who stick to protocol. Anyway, you were right; the dealer was wrong. I wouldn't stiff across the board over it, but then again, I play in a room where the dealers keep their own tips.


Rather than scream at the dealer, why not ask that a floorman be called?


Since you're going to be stiffing FW dealers from now on, there are some threads on the News, Views, & Gossip forum that you might like to chime in on....

Yeah I was reading those threads. Thought they were humourous.


CJ

CJ,


The dealer was clearly wrong. I play at Foxwoods, too, so I know what you mean when you criticize the dealers (though some of them, like Johnny, Ken, and the 30ish woman with curly red hair whose name escapes me, are very good).


That being said, your getting so angry about it is not going to accomplish anything, except make you play worse because of the tilt factor. As you know, this is a game of patience and discipline. I suspect you'll do a lot better in the long run if you put these things in perspective. Going back there with a chip on your shoulder and an attitude that you are going to stiff all dealers no matter what is not going to help your game, but it very well may hurt it.


Good luck in Las Vegas next week.

i dont remmeber the famous IWTSTH story! what was it?


Pat

If I lose in a showdown, I would surely like to see all of the calling hands because I paid my money to buy all of that information.

B-Man,


Just because I think the dealers ( or rather know ) suck...doesn't mean I will play any differently because of them. ( although after this particular instance happend, my play did suffer and I fortunately noticed this and left b4 too much damage was done to my roll )


It has nothing to do with a 'chip on my shoulder'. We tip for good service, and for no other reason. I have failed to receive good service from Foxwoods dealers. Hence no tips. Now I understand that not every dealer is a moron. But since they share tips, why should I contribute to the livelyhoods of the bad ones?


Thanks for the post..


Sincerly,


CJ

Pat,


A very quick version of the story goes as follows.


I was in a small limit Hold'Em game at the Woods. I was on the button and raised the flop with an open-ended straight draw. I turned a flush draw also and bet the turn. River came an Ace and my opponent bet into me and I had jack crap. So I folded.


Well an older lady wanted to see my cards. ( she folded the flop ) The dealer removed my cards from the top of the muck and proceeded to show her my cards. I informed the dealer that he should not have done that. He started to try and explain the IWTSH rule to me. I explained to him the error of his thinking, then.. well to say the least.. it got ugly between me and him. A floorperson was involved in that mess. I (believe) that dealer was removed from the rotation after that turn in the box as another player had also had a confrontation with him and spoke to the floor.


I have never seen that dealer again. ( thankfully )


CJ

ever wonder if the rule is intended to discourage checking hands down on the river, thus increasing pot sizes and the rake? Just a thought.