re: a questionable play

i wasnt sure what to title this hand since i felt there were a few questionable plays:


player 1(me): ks9s/2s player 2: xx/6. on third it is four handed for one bet at 5-10. I brought in and there were no raises.


on fourth street I pair the 2 and player 2 pairs his 6. 6's bet I reraise and other two fold.

on fifth street i catch a 6. The 6's check i bet and he calls. boards are 226 vs. 669.


on sixth street both players catch blanks. 6's check and i check. on seventh street i catch nothing and have a pair of twos. 6's bet and i fold.


Pat

I have a strong aversion to playing against paired door cards, perhaps too much so. Assuming $12 in the pot after 3rd street, and assuming the sixes bet $10 on 4th, I believe I’d have to think there was an excellent chance the sixes would not call my raise before I’d feel comfortable putting in $20 in this spot. I understand your raise was made to isolate the sixes and play heads up with your deuces and king kicker, but I’m not sure how effective this is in this spot. Had anyone behind you been willing to come in for a single bet, looking at two paired door cards (your calling would have been scary by itself), he probably would have called a raise, too. It might actually have been better to call rather than raise, and see what things looked like on 5th street.


So, I believe I would have given it up on 4th street. Given that my flush draw was at best 9:1 at that point, and that my pair was beaten on board, and that I was either way behind or a little behind, with players behind me, I might have chosen to sit this one out.


Tom D

I'd difinitely fold on the 4th. Not much in the pot; the bettor with paired doorcard; 2 players still waiting to act and all I have is a pair of deuces with a King kicker. I'd wait for another battle to fight.

I agree with Tom and Bravo. I think the biggest way you make money in low limit stud games is by having the patience to wait until the cards/pot odds are well in your favor. Many of the other players don't have the patience and/or knowledge to do so. That's definitely where Roy West is coming from, and the more I play low limit, the more I see his points. I also keep remembering the title of Gary Olivers pamphlet "The Waiting Game". In my game, early street ramming and jamming, particularly in fixed limit games, is a break even tactic whose main value is getting other players to call when I have a strong hand. I would never raise in the situation you describe unless my pair were higher than his.

All I play is 5-10 when I get to AC or LV, and this type of hand is a common occurrence IMO:


I agree with the posters up to this point that folding is the best play. If you want to take a shot and see 5th st, I think you realize you will get at least 1, maybe both other players calling as well and go 4-handed to 5th st. Naturally, if you don't improve 5th st you're outta there!


However, I do have a few caveats - while not trying to make this situation overly complicated, it actually can be.


Here's a few questions: The player with the 6's -was he a good player in your estimation? And what do you believe your table image was: Tight? Passive? I have found that the "isolation" re-raise in most 5-10 games is only a good play against a really good player who will fold 2 pair if they strongly believe you have trips. As long as you're sure he's a very good player, you can take this shot and hope he folds, assuming your table image is tight/passive. The good player will be the one to question "Why is THIS guy raising and WHAT is this guy RAISING WITH?"


Trouble brews if he re-raises you here - either he has trips and is going to punish you or he's looking to validate his opinion of you by re-raising you here - just in case you're trying for a free card on 5th. If you fold to his re-raise, you've thrown away 2 $5.00 bets - if you stay, you have to cap it and hope he folds. If he calls, you curse the $20.00 you just threw away, because he's calling you to the river, if not betting out on 6th.


Bad and average players will not be so cerebral and usually just call you all the way to the river in this game with 2 pairs. Therefore you will absolutely have to improve to win. However, if they were on a draw and only had a pair of 6s, there is a slim chance they might fold if you continue to bet out. Therefore in the hand you posted, when the 6's checked again on 6th st, he didn't have anything. You have to bet 6t st and hope he folds. Again, expensive if he already has 2 pairs, because he ain't folding.


It sounds boring and repetitive, but straight-forward play I've found to be the best answer in most 5-10 games. Bluffing, even semi-bluffing usually (not always, but most times) adds little value here. Solid analysis of the other players' skills is invaluable, bacause it will allow you to vary your play. Otherwise it becomes critical that you play YOUR hands and not other player's hands.

I would have taken the free card on fifth street.