Sunk on the boat

After erasing all casino losses over the last two years with a powerful rush in $2-4 on Paradise, I was as confident as I've ever been when I sat down in the $1-5 game on Harrah's East Chicago riverboat Friday afternoon. Ante is .50, bring in $1, same as Mohegan/Foxwoods games. But the rake is much higher -- $5 plus $1 bad beat jackpot taken at $30. Ouch. Also, paired doorcard on fourth street raises limit for that hand to $10.


My business meeting had finished (successfully) and I had my entire home game winnings ($650+) as a bankroll. The players were amazingly loose -- CJ, they make the Mohegan players look rocky. The guy on my right was drunk and playing wildly, singing and laughing and shaking hands with everyone. The guy one down to my left had never played poker in a casino before but was a regular in the pit who felt like "paying for some lessons".


Seemingly ideal circumstances...but of course you know the rest. I got my clock cleaned. I was still wondering what hit me as I staggered onto the dock (or rather into the parking garage on the dock) down $250 after 9 hard fought hours of play.


The players were soooo loose -- four or five times, the final card had to be common, because there weren't enough left in the deck for the six or more players still in at the river. I took two beats on the common card: on one, the final ace made me aces and kings but made a flush for another player with two suited cards showing.


Other beats:

trip aces that didn't fill beaten by a rivered flush

aces up on fourth beaten by a pair of 3s that drew out to a baby straight

ace-king-ten flush beaten by ace-king-jack flush


In general, I had a bad run of cards (in contrast to my incredible rush on Paradise of late). It seemed that my pairs always had a dead card. My big sidecards always hit other people's boards. My flush draws never drew. Etc.


I tried blasting away early, waiting to raise later (ala Sklansky), but the truth is when several players will call to the death with any draw or any pair, you've got to have the cards. I'd say two-thirds of hands ended in showdowns. And of those that didn't, many were only folded on the river when people didn't hit.


Cards aside, though, I'm starting to agree with Pat, that this game is very tough to beat, because the structure makes the loosest, most clueless players closer to correct. Count the massive rake into the equation and it's really not a pretty picture. The best case for playing here is that when you do hit a run of cards, you can really take down some big multi-way pots.


When I contrast this with the $2-4 game, .25 ante, $1 bring in at Paradise there are significant differences. The lower ante make tighter play more correct, and the structured limit allows for aggression at lower cost early to set up either continued aggression if you improve, free cards, or a semi-bluff later.


I'm also thinking I may have "tells" that are hurting my live play. One disturbing thing that happened in the casino -- I was dealt rolled tens, just called the bring in and, of course, this was the one hand where everyone folded except one woman. She was usually a very stubborn caller on early streets, so when I caught an unsuited 6 on fourth, I bet $5 (I'd been blasting away with pairs earlier). She folded instantly. I'm thinking she just had nothing, but it's possible she read something from the way I bet.


Oh well -- it will be awhile until I next have an opportunity to play in a casino. But I'm thinking when I do, I'll put my shrinking bankroll on the $5-10 table and see how it goes.

what table were you at? I was playing at table 4 till about 1.

I left around 11 -- not sure which # table I was at, but it had a heavyset guy with a ponytail, a youngish heavy woman and an older black man who played everything. I bet you were the young guy with sunglasses in the #2 seat? I was in the grey t-shirt in the #8 seat. If that was you, I was impressed with your fourth street raises -- you actually got people to fold a couple of times. btw,

the wild table I was talking about was earlier -- it broke up and I went for a sandwich below, then switched to the table you were at. The drunk was a thin black guy who kept singing (among other things) "always tip the dealer" -- maybe you've played with him?

I forgot, I had friday off and worked saturday so I was there thursday night. All the days are blending together, that can't be good.


Youngish heavy woman have dark hair? Talk constantly and slip in that she's a lawyer about 50 times? If so I know who she is (and obviously am not a fan).

No, this woman was dirty blond, very obese, 30ish, came with a male friend who played at a different table. She was actually okay to play with -- didn't talk a lot.


Have you ever seen the singer? He was definitely a regular -- knew all the dealers and many players.

$6Max drop total.. and at 30.....


Ouch.......


That is a game to be avoided..


CJ

I have to disagree here. I used to play in a $2/4 stud game that had a $.50 ante and a $1 bring-in. There was 10% rake capped at $4.50 with a $1 jackpot drop for any pot $15 or greater. I beat the game for about $7/hr. The players were bad enough that I could overcome the ridiculous overhead. I'm not going to suggest that playing $1-5 is productive use of anyone's time, but I think it's wrong to suggest that the game is not beatable.


I've never played $1-5, but $250 seems like a lot to lose in one (longish) sitting. Not to be harsh, but you might be playing less than optimally.

I don't think it's harsh at all to suggest that losing a lot may be symptomatic of some holes in my game. I'm looking for them, believe me.

I've posted starting standards and playing strategies here before, and gotten some useful advice. I actually don't feel that $250 is that extraordinary. In this session, I lost at least a half dozen pots with good second best hands and had many other starting situations that didn't improve and had to be folded. Add in the rake and tokes and it's pretty easy to lose this much. Playing the 2-4 on Paradise, I've had comparable swings. But I've overall had a good run of cards and won about $900 -- this erased my casino losses and has left me with a bankroll of about $300 in poker winnings (including the boat loss). I am probably a bit on the tight side, and I think the structure of the $1-5 ante game is the worst for that style. But I do also think that I have more trouble reading players live than I do online -- that may be my biggest hole right now. Online, I tend to do a better job of just focusing on the cards, the situation and the player's past behavior. In the casino, I can get more caught up in distractions such as someone's facial expression, table talk or way of betting. From my limited experience, your record in the high ante 2-4 game if sustained over, say, 50 sessions, is impressive. I'd be interested to hear about your starting standards and tactics. One thing I find in these high ante games is that when 2 or 3 players will stay with negative EV hands, their cumulative effect makes you a dog even though you may have far the best hand. And the high ante encourages "taking one (or two or three) cards off.

I think it was over something like 40 sessions. My biggest loss at $2/4 was $100, and I think my biggest loss at $3/6 stud (of which I played a lot more) was $200, maybe a little more. I've lost about 40 BB playing stud/8 and 70 BB playing HE, but I don't think I've ever lost more than 35 BB playing stud.


I don't think that my starting requirements were optimal at the time. I'm not sure what the proper balance is between loosening up for the big ante and tightening up for the large bring-in. In your game, you have a high ante and small bring-in, so you should play somewhat loose, but don't get carried away with it, as the rake will neutralize a lot of your profit. At $3/6 with a $.50 ante and a $1 bring-in, which I still play occasionally, I tend to play any live pair/live kicker for the bring-in, unless there is a significant threat of a raise on the first round. I'm basically looking to hit on fourth street or get out. Frequently, I can see fifth or even sixth for $1. Players in this game will pay off the whole way when you pair your door card. If your opponents aren't this bad, you should be more selective with your pairs.


My feeling is that most straight draws are money losers in these kinds of games. Straights are hard to make, and they get beaten a lot. A lot of a straight draw's value in a more reasonable game comes from being able to win when they back into two-pair-type hands. Those hands aren't likely to win if five people are seeing the river. I'm not saying that you shouldn't play straight draws. I'm just saying that you shouldn't stay with them too long if they don't develop quickly. And I have been known to dump 654 and 543 for the bring-in. Flush draws, on the other hand, are somewhat easier to fill, and they have a better chance of holding up if you get there. A large chunk of my profits from high-ante small stud games came from playing flush draws aggressively. Hope that helps.

I play on the looser side for the bring in stud and I don't even want to play 456 or 345.

I can think of a couple of people that might be, one in particular. I'll be there tonight and tomorrow night so if I see anybody singing I'll let you know.

I'm glad I haven't avoided this game. There's always someone with ~0 chance to win pissing in at least an extra 5 bucks to make up for the huge rake. as to the questions of MRB having a rather big loss, I think the large ante requires playing looser which makes for fairly large swings; I wouldn't[haven't] give up all hope after losing 200 in a night. Doesn't mean he shouldn't examine the hands he played and look for mistakes, but one session does not a bad run make.