Let the flaming begin

[Apocalypse]

Another hand in addition to the post i made yesterday. Again, against a typical player:

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Of course, if i do this, i can only do this once every session unless specifically pointed otherwise (but these are quite some bets in the long run i guess). But am i really winning here once in twelve times? Should i not have 3-bet? Let the flaming commence /images/graemlins/grin.gif ...

[kiddo]

If you reraise river you are hoping he is sitting with an A, worse kicker. If he is bluffing he will fold and if he hit a that Q he will call or cap.

If I was him I would slowplay Q and raise river but not slowplay A if I hit turn. With A I would a) raise flop or b) "slowplay" going for a raise on turn no matter what hits, and specially if A hits or c) call both turn and river, thinking his riverbet indicates he have at least same A.

So, if the other thinks like me, you should not 3bet river. But if u do, u have to call his cap.

[The Dude]

I'm 3-betting this river against most opponents, and I may or may not call the river. With no read, I probably lean toward calling, since 6max tables tend to attract a lot of wackos. However, you certainly don't have to call the river cap. In fact, I think the line you took is fine against many opponents.

[Apocalypse]

thanks, in retrospect i was thinking in similar lines and felt more dubious about my 3-bet than me folding to the cap on the river. I do think however your overestimating somewhat the level of most players at this limit. There is a fair share of players that will raise the river and pay of a 3-bet with lesser hands than top two top kicker. Just hadn't played that much hands to figure out wether he belonged specifically to that group though.

But i see your thought, and like to hear more people about this. The only thing i disagree with is -of course- your last sentence. If i 3-bet i certainly dont HAVE TO call the cap considering the potsize.

[imitation]

I would not 3bet the river, but I agree with kiddo you should pay off the cap because you have no read.

[ToneLoc]

With the opponent waiting for the river to pop you, I think something really bad happened! With an ace he would just raise the turn wouldn't he?

My guess is that he is more likely to have a queen, probably has an Ace, or is trynig the Big Bluff from outer space!

He will cap with a Q, fold with nothing, meaning the only case where your raise will pay is when he holds Ax (notice that tight players would actually fold Ace-crap).

Looks to me that just calling is better, unless you know something extra on your customer!

[fyodor]

I would not 3 bet here vs an unknown. I would call the cap against an unknown though if I somehow put myself in that situation.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think however your overestimating somewhat the level of most players at this limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing i disagree with is -of course- your last sentence. If i 3-bet i certainly dont HAVE TO call the cap considering the potsize.

[/ QUOTE ]

If part of the reason for 3betting river is that you think they are not very good players, prepared to call with worse then toppair then I guess they are also capable of doing a cap on river without that QQQ.

The argument behind me calling a cap if I 3bet is: If u are up against a good player I think u better call because he will normally not have A (because he would have played it differently if he had). But if u are up against a not so good player u can 3bet, thinking he is trying to work in some "random trickieness" into his play, but then u also have to call the cap because a bad player could be one thinking "lets bluff.... uh... he calls... hm, maybe he is rebluffing, I have seen that on WORLD POKER TOUR a lots of times. lets cap and see if he folds, if he folds I am gonna show him my hand, it would be so cool!" Or if he is a bad LAG he could honestly think he is ahead with AJ.

[BlueBear]

Very tough but I'll be inclined to 3-bet this on the river because typical players do prefer to raise a queen on turn, especially with the flush draw present.

[spider]

When he raises you on the river, it really looks like he has a queen. But it's possible it is a pure bluff.

To 3-bet there, you need there to be a good chance he has an ace, 9, or PP. And considering he will probably 3-bet with a queen and fold a bluff, this would have to be well over 50% of the times he is not bluffing, right? Or supposing he would only call with a queen you need him to have one of these hands at least as often as a queen.

Seems to me the odds of an A, 9, or PP are a lot less than 50%. I think the 3-bet is a mistake. Just call.

[Apocalypse]

tx for the input people, really appreciate it.

I agree i shouldn't have 3-bet his riverraise because of the general reasons most of you put down here. Theres just not much that i beat that will raise the river. And i was too short at the table too have a read waterproof enough to make it 3-bets because of specific reasons.

Opponent decided to flip up his hand regardless of my fold by the way; he was holding nines rivering a full house after poorly playing his hand upto that point /images/graemlins/wink.gif