Yeah... I flat called a raise with AKo....

[Gomez22]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB & MP2 are good/decent players

Preflop: Gomez22 is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Gomez22 calls, MP1 calls.

I'm not sure whether I like this play or not... it conceals my hand, and I'm outta position, and it may give me a leg up on a more observant player later, but after a limper, a raiser, and 2 cold-callers, I wasn't exactly sure where I was gonna be until I saw the flop, so I decided to flat call here



Flop: (10 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Gomez22 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 folds, SB folds, Gomez22 calls, MP1 calls.

Hmmmm... A gutshot to the nut straight, backdoor 2nd nut flush draw, and 2 overcards that likely weren't going to be good, I figured close to 6 outs here... .check-call it is!



Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Gomez22 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Gomez22 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

1 of the 3 cards I really wanted to see here... I just wonder if I jumped the gun by not going for an overcall from MP1....



River: (10.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Gomez22 bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.50 BB, between Gomez22 and MP2.</font>


Really, I'm not sure how well I played this hand. I can reason out WHY I flat called PF, but when I think of the 4 BB or so I lost by NOT 3-betting PF, it makes me wonder about it..... I sometimes struggle playing AK/AQ from the blinds against 3+ players.

[Entity]

I like everything except the flat-call preflop. Unless I know they'll only raise AA/KK, I think a 3-bet is in order.

Rob

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
Really, I'm not sure how well I played this hand. I can reason out WHY I flat called PF, but when I think of the 4 BB or so I lost by NOT 3-betting PF, it makes me wonder about it..... I sometimes struggle playing AK/AQ from the blinds against 3+ players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also struggle in this situation. AKo I most always raise by AQo I play depending on the mood and the phase of Venus.

[Gomez22]

Usually, with position, I'll 3-bet and cap with AKo, and AQo, but without position against 3 or more players, I'm more than likely going to flat call a raise with 2 cold-callers in front of me unless I think I can narrow the field somewhat.

According to PT, I raise AKs 98.97% PF and AKo 96.57% PF (total of 97,000 limit hands in the database)

[Entity]

AQo is a slightly different story for me, but AKo is pretty much a 3-bet from any position. I don't always cap it from the blinds; that's more dependent on my opponents and how I feel like I can play them postflop.

AKs is a 3-bet and cap from any position against just about anyone.

I feel like in most situations (A flops, K flops, or a board like this flops), I miss out on too much by not 3-betting this preflop. The coldcallers make this an easier 3-bet for me, because I know my equity is significantly larger than theirs. I choose to exploit that edge now; my position sucks, but I think I'm giving up too much by not 3-betting here.

Rob

[Meraxes]

I vote for 3-betting preflop. Whether you get capped or not tells you a lot about MP2's hand. You're out of position, but the flop is usually hit or miss for AKo (although in this instance you managed to flop a couple draws).

[uuDevil]

Hey Gomez22,

I have trouble with this too. On seeing this thread, I remembered that a virtual shooting war broke out over this topic several months ago but the thread got so long I couldn't keep up with it.

It involved a lot of 2+2 bigshots like John Feeney, astroglide, Dynasty, GuyOnTilt, slavic, and others. Maybe now would be a good time to go back and check it out:

Just Calling wiht AK on the BB (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=625596&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[Fiddler]

[ QUOTE ]
Usually, with position, I'll 3-bet and cap with AKo, and AQo, but without position against 3 or more players, I'm more than likely going to flat call a raise with 2 cold-callers in front of me unless I think I can narrow the field somewhat.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really cap with AQo? I always raise it but unless I have the BB I usally fold it to a raise. Maybe you should take the bets from your AQo caps and move them to always raising AKo... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Gomez22,

I have trouble with this too. On seeing this thread, I remembered that a virtual shooting war broke out over this topic several months ago but the thread got so long I couldn't keep up with it.

It involved a lot of 2+2 bigshots like John Feeney, astroglide, Dynasty, GuyOnTilt, slavic, and others. Maybe now would be a good time to go back and check it out:

Just Calling wiht AK on the BB (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=625596&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a really great thread. Thanks for the link.

Looks like the overall consensus is that in almost all scenarios, raising is still the most +EV, but there are scenarios where calling could be more +EV. Sound like a good summation?

Rob

[Gomez22]

Of course every situation in poker is unique unto and in itself, but there can be "guidelines" to form a basis for playing a hand a certain way and expected gains and losses from those actions.

Granted, I played this hand a little weak (OK - maybe VERY weak) pre-flop, but I didn't feel comfortable at that time to make it 3-bets from the front end of the table with 2 players that I considered to be at least decent for the 1/2 level having position on me for the rest of the hand.

If there had been 2 players that I considered idiots in there, then I can see 3-betting it, or if the raise had come from a not-so-reliable player that I deemed to have poor raising standards, I woulda comsidered and probably 3-bet here, but against this particular PF raiser AND SB calling here, I felt it best to see a cheap flop and evaluate my play for the rest of the hand at that time....

[HajiShirazu]

If MP2 is a decent player, he's probably raising with a wider variety of hands than what most bad players raise with. Either way, AK is a monster here. You might be out of position, they might be okay, but you probably have the field dominated. Get your chips in the pot!

[uuDevil]

Well it took me a few hours, but I read the whole thread. I have to say it is one of the most detailed arguments I've read on 2+2 (though still far from really complete). This cannot do justice to the whole thread, but here is my summary:

Arguments for not raising (more applicable against good players):

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif To vary your play so they don't always put you on a big pr when you raise out of the BB.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif To keep the pot small and (assuming you improve) to get an opportunity to protect your hand by betting or check-raising on the flop, increasing the % of time you win the pot. This play may be indicated if conditions will allow you to get in a field-thinning bet or raise. These conditions include a pf raise from an aggressive button or from an aggressive player on your immediate left who will likely raise when you bet the flop.

Arguments for raising (especially against bad players):

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Bad players can't be deceived so there's no reason to vary your play.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif You probably have the best hand (excess pot equity), so raising is +EV.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Raising as a default play may miss some opportunities to get more +EV by checking but these situations are not necessarily frequent or easy to identify or exploit.

After all this, I'm not really convinced either way. But assuming checking can be sometimes be better, it doesn't look like the situation in this hand is ideal because of the players between the hero and the likely flop bettor.