First live stud experience (8/b)

Well I finally grew a pair and played in the 4/8 7CS hi/lo, .50 ante $2 bringin, at canterbury this weekend for about an hour, my first time playing any stud live anywhere. To be honest I've never seen worse poker. People were playing any 3 cards just about, going way too far with their hands, just awful - what I expect from the 2/4 hold'em tables, but there you can at least get lucky and hit the flop, playing KQ3 rainbow at this game just gets you killed. I saw one raise that didn't come from me, and of course was the only person to checkraise - I checkraised the obvious trip kings to my left on 6th after 3 people called his bet with my made low (4 on my board) - there was one other low possible with 3 on his board. They all called, on the river I checked to the kings who bet (why?), everyone else folded so I just called with no hi, otherwise I would have checkraised again if the other possible low folded but another hi called. It was fun, but frustrating considering the pace of the game, constantly making change for antes due to it being a $2 yellow chip game, some extremely elderly gentleman in the game with obvious visual problems, that sort of thing. At 26 years old there was one person who was not over twice my age at the table - and not by much.


Most pots were 5-7 way to 4th for $2, and yes, there was a community card used on the river in one hand when it was entirely checked around through the whole table on all streets (I was the bring in and had nothing worth betting). It was "no fold em stud", in one hand it was 3 way and checked through 4th and 5th - on 6th the guy on my right had 4 hearts on his board, was checked to, bet, and was called by both opponents (with no low draw on boards), and he futility checked the river when he didn't catch a 5th heart - the other two had small two pairs. I looked at him, he looked at me, and we both just started laughing; only once did I not see a hand go to a showdown. I wound up winning maybe 1 or 2 bets before deciding to play hold'em after I missed a couple big low draws I put some chips into, and ironically misread my hand once..


Anyways my main question/problem here is the rake. It is massive at 10%, $4.50 max and I watched it fill up nearly every hand. In split pot games, I'd assume heavy rakes really hurt you? How does this effect your 3rd street strategy? How the heck do you toke in a split pot game anyways - the only ones I've played in before were online. I figure there has to be good potential for profit with people who play this badly, but I think about the rake and tokes and the jackpot drop and I cringe. Really any kind of 3rd street general strategy would help me out a lot here as I'm still very much in my stud infancy especially hi-lo, which I prefer from what I've seen because the best cards on 3rd generally wind up winning more than in 7CS hi i.e. loose play is severally punished.


All I know is the dealers must really hate this game. I'm going to put in a serious session next weekend and see how it turns out, but right now I can't help but think its the most profitable game in the room.

The game was excellent when CP first opened up. I get only get

out there once, sometimes twice a month due to lousy traffic

conditions and a heavy work schedule.


The problem with the game now is that is very sporatic. More

often than not, the game is not going. When it is going, a long

list may exist, and the list may not move. You will never see

2 tables going. And the game is not always good; you may find a

player makeup such that everyone frequently folds to the bring-in.

But when the right player makeup is found....


What I look for are at the table are high only stud players who

can't get a 3/6 or 4/8 seat because the games aren't going or they

have a long list. These guys way overplay high hands. Some of these

guys have deep pockets or drop $300 or $400 at stud/8.


The $5.50 rake including a jackpot tax is a killer; most players bust out

and go home. Tight play is the only way to reduce these costs. Tipping

is at your discretion, and I see no reason to tip on a small split

pot that shows minimal gain because of the $5.50 taken out. Always

keep "pumpkin" chips in your stack for tips, let the off duty dealers

tip $2 or $3 on a split pot.


You are right about the game being slow with $2 chips and a 50 cent ante.

If I ran the place, a $100 or $200 buyin would get $10 in pumpkin chips

from the chip runner, then the remainder in $2 chips.


Your third and 4th street strategy are crucial in this game. I play mainly

low hands on third, dumping most high hands except for trips or a pair

of aces. High hands will occasionally take a big sweeper, but they

often lose to a low that backs into a flush, straight or aces up. It stinks

to bet a hand down, then get raised on the river by a low draw that turns

into a sweeper. In a tight game high only hands are valuable, but in the

game you described they are dangerous. Be very wary of an ace out there if

you choose to start a high only hand. What you really want on third street

are low hands with sweeper potential: 3 small cards to a straight, 3 small

cards of the same suit, 3 small cards including an ace. Let the other guys

draw to an 8 low, you can dump those starting hands. A boring way to play

though if the game is slow. But you are right, loose play is severely

punished. Guys starting with 8 lows, pair of tens, KQ3, etc. will lose

their buyin quickly.


On 4th dump your low hand when you draw a brick.


Good luck fellow CP player....

I agree that is a killer rake for a 4/8 game. When I visited Los Angeles, the rake in the 20/40 7Stud8 game at the Bike was only $3 per pot.


It looks like you are playing well so far. I believe the good player has a greater edge in this game than in any other form of limit poker.


If you want to make money at this game I'd suggest you buy Ray Zee's book. Also, the 3/6 7Stud8 game on Party Poker is very soft, it goes most evenings. Email me if you play in it and I'll evaluate your play.


Where is the Canterbury, btw?

20 minutes west or southwest?? of minneapolis approximately

When Canterbury first opened, the $4/8 stud/8 game was wild and loose. And I got my ass handed to me. /images/smile.gif After enough people went broke, the game got to be pretty tight, and it was hard to make any money in it. It was also hard to get a game going for quite a while. I think that the renewed interest in the game is due in part to the recent success of the $30/60 stud/8 game. $6/12 stud died off for a while, but there was renewed interest after they raised the limits and there were some bigger stud games for a while. You don't see too many big high-only stud games anymore (pity, that), but they still get $6/12 stud going on weekends.


There was a guy who claimed to be taking about $600 a week out of the $4/8 stud/8 game. I haven't seen him for quite a while. If he was winning like that, there wasn't too much left for anyone else. I The overhead is just insane. The jackpot drop is a killer. If you're playing at all properly, it's just too hard to make quads, as you should be throwing away most of your pairs. Apparently most of your opponents weren't. There should be a separate stud/8 jackpot (I'd prefer it if it weren't jackpot eligible, myself), since stud and stud/8 are completely different games. The stud/8 players contribute more than their share to the stud jackpot, but the jackpot almost never gets paid out on a stud/8 table. Between the rake and the jackpot drop, if a hand goes heads-up right away and the pot ends up being chopped, both players lose money. I quit playing the game for a while because I lost money with quad 7s. At least in the $30/60 game, if you end up chopping, you win $18. I don't like risking $240 to win $18, but it's better than losing money.


When I play $30/60 stud/8, I buy a rack of $5 ante chips as well as a rack of $10 chips. I used to buy racks of $.50 chips when I played small stud, and people thought it was ridiculous. Too much time is wasted making change. A lot of dealers will occasionally get confused when making change, and even more time is wasted figuring out who got screwed out of 50 cents. This is particularly true when making change for $2 chips. If everyone kept a stack or two of pumpkins in front of him, there wouldn't be any problem.


I think it would be a much better game if they made it $6/12 instead of $4/8. $6/12 is a better structure for a stud game to begin with. The bring-in should be 1/3 of the small bet, not 1/2. With the $1 ante, there would be less time wasted making change. The rake at $6/12 is $4 instead of $4.50, and the smaller rake is particularly appealing in a split pot game. The pots would be physically larger, stimulating action. Better yet, play $30/60. /images/smile.gif


I'm 34 and I've spent a lot of time playing in low-limit stud games where I was the youngest player by twenty years or more. I don't even notice it anymore. Actually, I recently played in a short-handed $30/60 hold'em game where I was the oldest player. It's the only time I can think of where I was the oldest player in a game, and that dates back to high school.


As for actual strategy recommendations, uh, buy Ray Zee's book. Read it twenty times or so. It's worked for me. Realize that marginally profitable hands are going to be made unprofitable by the rake. Also, since the bring-in is half a bet, you shouldn't limp in with weak hands hoping to catch perfect on fourth, unless the players are so bad that you can expect to get paid off big when you hit. That game is not always as soft as what you experienced. And you can afford to play pretty tight since the ante isn't that big (the smallest relative ante in the house). There's nothing wrong with tipping $.50 on a chopped pot, and there's nothing wrong with not tipping when you chop a small pot. When I play that game, I might tip $2 on a big sweeper, but then again, I tip $2 on a big sweeper in $30/60. I tend to tip $1 at $30/60 whether I chop a small pot or a large pot, or even if I sweep a good-sized pot. It's me sticking my neck out there, not the dealer, and they do pretty well overall. So they don't make any money dealing $4/8 stud/8. It's one lousy down out of their shift, and they get to deal plenty of hold'em.


I have gone entire 12-hour sessions without check-raising playing stud/8. There are good spots for it, to be sure, like the situation you described above, but I tend to either bet out or check and fold anyway. Straightforward play gets the money in these easy games. In low-limit stud games in particular, you'll find that there usually isn't anyone who's going to bet your hand for you.


I have actually found $3/6 through $6/12 high-only stud more profitable than $4/8 stud/8. That's just my personal experience, and I'm still trying to figure out some things in stud/8. Like how to play a pair of Kings. /images/smile.gif


It was nice meeting you. Good luck out there.

My last trip to Canterbury was for an eight hour session, two

hours at 3/6 stud, 6 hours at 4/8 Stud 8. It was interesting to

watch where the money went. I had a $51 win, the only small winner,

two players left up somewhere in the mid $100's, a decent win at this

limit, and at least 15 players were stuck, many for over $200.

As the $4.50 rake and $1 Jackpot were reached almost every hand, and two

players toked many rounds, hundreds of dollars were falling off the

table. Playing for such an extended period, I personally must have

contributed well over $100 in rake, tax, and tips, ouch At roughly $6 or $7

a hand, I wonder what the hourly house cut is on this table, $120 maybe?


Personally I prefer 4/8 stud/8 to 3/6 high only. The up and down swings

tend to be much lower, and small wins are the usual result. The high

only game may yield a larger profit over the long run, but I find the

stud/8 more entertaining and less stressfull. One must look at the

full picture, this is recreation for most of us. The sneaky aspect of

the game is hilarious, where your board indicates an apparent low hand,

but your hidden small straight, flush, or boat bites the guy who has been

driving the betting. Full blown tilts are common at stud/8, worth the price

of admission.


The game structure varies by cardroom. At the Bellagio, the bring in is

$1 versus the $2 at CP, or 1/4 the small bet instead of 1/2. This makes

limping in with marginal hands like (2,5) 7 offsuit more reasonable,

and it makes completing with hand like (K,K) 6 more likely to chase a

few players out. Completing the bet at Canterbury has minimal effect,

nobody drops, the pot is a little bigger, your (K,K) 6 is still in for

a rollercoaster ride.


One player at my table remarked that it is insulting to tip a dealer 0.50,

well, everyone is entitled to his opinion. This guy lost a few hundred

but continued to tip $1 on split pots. Like you said, the dealers

really can't complain about this game. There is at most one table of 4/8

stud 8 going in a large cardroom. And I have never seen the frequent $1, $2

or $3 tokes that are common here in other locations. In Las Vegas quarter

tips are common in low stakes stud, and $3 tips are rare, and .50 or zero

are probably the most frequent amount. Besides, they could be stuck at

the 4/8 Omaha game and have to put up with Harold.


Good luck fellow CP players...

Full blown tilts are common at stud/8, worth the price of admission.


You should try the $30/60 some time. Everyone steams. It's beautiful. /images/smile.gif


If everyone in every game tipped $.50, the dealers would still make a reasonable living wage. Most folks tip $1, and many tip more. I suspect that if you take cost of living and everything into account, the dealers at Canterbury are doing as well as or better than any dealers in the country. You've got one guy who doesn't tip, but he still keeps the game going which allows the dealers to collect tokes from everyone else. There are many players I find much more unpleasant than Harold.


I used to play a lot of small stud, and I used to tip $1. It then occurred to me that the dealers were making almost as much off of my action as I was, so I started tipping $.50. Now when I play small stud, I usually tip $1 on any reasonable pot, because my primary reason for playing is passing time waiting for a seat in a bigger game rather than making money. I think tipping is nice, but I don't owe anyone a living.