How could I have played this to get more coin?

[BuffaloSoldier]

Tourney Question I ran into the other day:

Starting chip stacks are 1000.
Players are pretty bad (I have a lot of notes)
UTG with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif with blinds at 10-20 (2nd level).
I limp in and 5 others (7/9 people at the table see a flop).
The flop comes:

J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Here are my thoughts:
- most likely I am good
- however, there are so many ways that I can get drawn out on, I want to get more information to figure out where I am at; from early position, a re-raise tells me nothing
- there is only 140 chips in the pot; a significant addition to my stack but I am still not married to my hand.

It is checked to me and I check.
Awful player #5 bets 35 at the pot and Awful player #6 makes it 70 to go.
Everyone else folds and both of us smooth call.
(At this site, people push all-in post flop to catch for the "50-50" 5th spade if they are raised enough, so I wanted to wait for the turn to get my odds.)
The turn is a beatiful 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
I check because these morons are certain to fire at it (my read) and thats when I want to push in.
They both check behind me.
The river is the J /images/graemlins/club.gif.
I check and nobody pays me off.

From your past experiences, what is a good way to play the flop, turn, and river based on the information I gave you about the players? These guys most certainly will push in post flop (i.e. 'I mean, its 50-50, right'). How can you maximize your pots?

Any opinon is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike

[hurlyburly]

Flop: definitely re-raise to about 125, you have 7 outs compared to the possible 9 they have to a flush. If you raise any more than that you'll ruin the pot odds for them.

Turn: That's your money card, bet pot. As an 80% favorite you have a right to get paid. Chances are they'll fold anyhow.

River: Wait a 10 count and min-bet it. If they stayed in with 2nd pair and you pull it off right, it should induce a bluff.

[remen]

I think your flop play is fine, maybe raise again when it gets back to you.

On the turn, it is very likely one (if not both) of the opponents are on a draw. I would definetly bet here, 2/3 of the pot or so.

One possibility on the river is to make a massive overbet by going all in. Many weak players hate to be bullied out of pots and want to see if you are bluffing. This move is very read dependant though, as most players will fold in this situation.

This move recently worked for me against a call station. I flopped top set (almost no draws on the board) and checked it to the river. On the river I put my opponent all in for about 1200 chips when the pot was 300 or so. He hit a pair of 3's on the river and called the all in bet. Again, I had a good read on my opponent in this case which allowed me to make this move.

This doesn't work often, but really pays off well when it does.

[SossMan]

You should be fairly certain that there will be a bet behind you when you check the flop, because giving a free card on that board is very dangerous. If I wasn't 90% sure that there would be a bet, I would go ahead and bet out on the flop. I don't even mind underbetting the pot.

After there is the bet and the raise, you really need to put in a raise there, probably all in. If there is a bet and a raise, they are likely to like their hand enough to pay you off. You have the best hand now, but any spade, 8, ten, or queen could easily scare the others from paying you off, or make them a better hand.

Get all in on that flop, or at least raise it enough to where they are pretty much PCd.

[gergery]

Your thinking seems to be “I don’t want to bet here since there is decent chance they could catch up and beat me. So I’ll wait before betting”.

You will be much better off if you think, “I have the best hand, but there are very likely to be people who could improve and catch me. Therefore I should bet so I charge them for their draws. Sometimes they’ll draw out and I’ll lose those chips, but much more often they won’t improve and I’ll keep their chips”.

You are overweighting the downside of losing chips now, but forgetting the downside of getting knocked out later because you didn’t have the chips then that you should have taken now.

I’d bet the most that I though a hand like Ax spades or T9 would call with.

--Greg

[Lurshy]

Looks a bit like 'Fancy Play Syndrome'.

If you put people on the draw, what happened to the good old, make em pay to draw out on me? While it takes a second best to really build a pot, you seemed to focus on not wanting be the second best, instead of betting your hand. If it is as loose as you say, at least one customer would stay for the draw.

So you slow played, buyt toward what end?

They took a shot on the flop, you just called, maybe OK, but you should have fired a bullet on the turn. It is suspicious when people smooth called a raise, this slowed them down, especially when the draw was missed. It is also is common to for a late raiser to be on a draw, as they are trying a) trying to buy a free card (everyone checks next round to raiser) b) Build a pot in case they hit (as well as disguise the draw c) take down the pot then and there (didn't happen). So you slow played the flop, time to fire on the turn.

The river is a bit iffy, as to if you would get callers on a bet. You know no-one else has a jack, which is what they fear. All draws missed. So whether you chase them out with a bet, or hope someone bluffs is close IMHO.

[BuffaloSoldier]

Thank you all for your posts.
I agree with you that my post flop and post turn plays were weak.
But let me ask you this... in what situations do you bet first UTG when you have the absolute nuts? And what tells are you looking for to know how much you can bet. Nobody calls the all-in here, do they? Or is there a good play to induce a reraise that has worked for anyone?
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Mike

[Percula]

It is going to be hard to talk about this in such a limit media. These are the types of questions that are best talked about over a few beers and a couple of hours. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

My assumtions... Low buy-in, wild play, lots of newbies burning there deposit bonus with WPT in their eyes.

Preflop: Raise to T100. Chances are pretty good if they are as bad as you say most of the limpers would have called anyway. Might even have got a reraise or two too.

Flop: Check, slow play. Chances are pretty good you would still see the bet and raise but in larger amounts. Lets say bet T100, raised to T300, you reraise to T600. This will likely be flat called by the better and get an all-in from the raiser, which you delay and call, which might get the better to call also, about 50/50 he will call the all-in.

You are a big favorite on the flop and you need to play the odds, or in other words get your money in the pot when you have the best of it. If you get sucked out, oh well, you played it right and more times than not you are going to win.

The big preflop raise, will induce "all-in" madness in most new players. When you get into the bet, raise, reraise cycle with these type of players, most are thinking you are just trying to put a move on them like they see Gus Hanssen do on TV and "aren't going to take it!". So they tend to play back at you with crap. This is an ideal situation, take advantage!

[Jason Strasser]

An analogy that kindof coincides with Gregery's thinking.

Say you have KK. You are the second largest stack in a tourney, and one out of the money. The largest stack, who is a complete idiot, who will call an all-in with anything, shows you his hand, which is A2, and raises.

Do you call and push any flop without an ace (to which he folds), or do you push preflop?

-Jason

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
An analogy that kindof coincides with Gregery's thinking.

Say you have KK. You are the second largest stack in a tourney, and one out of the money. The largest stack, who is a complete idiot, who will call an all-in with anything, shows you his hand, which is A2, and raises.

Do you call and push any flop without an ace (to which he folds), or do you push preflop?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push preflop, and I don't really think it's close with almost every payout structure out there.

[Jason Strasser]

Exactly, the same way you would easily commit your stack with top set when there are draws abound (like on this flop).

-Jason