Some beginner tournament questions

[Luke]

I'm working on making the transition from limit ring games to no limit tournaments and looking for some help.

Assume the same LIVE $100 buy-in tournament for the 2 hands:

There are 80 players and everyone starts with 100 in chips. Most of your opponents are too loose and not thinking players, but there are some decent players sprinkled in there.

Top ten pay, with 60% of the money being split by the top 2 players.

The blinds start at 2/4 and then go to 3/6, 4/8, 10/20, 15/30, 20/40... They go up every 30 minutes. There are no rebuys.


Hand 1:

Early in the tournament, everyone still has about 100 in chips including you. The blinds are 2/4.

There are two limpers, the SB completes and you check in the BB with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop comes J /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

You lead and bet nearly the pot, 15 in chips. You are called in late position by a complete unknown, but a presumed little too loose player.

The turn brings the 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, completing the rainbow. You have 80 in chips left and your opponent has 50. The pot has 46 in chips.

What's your move and your plan? How was the flop bet?


Hand 2:

Early in the tournament, everyone still has about 100 in chips including you. The blinds are 3/6.

2 poor, loose players limp to you on the button where you hold A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and raise to 25. Everyone except the 2 limpers fold.

3 of you to the flop of J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The 2 limpers check to you.

There is 84 in chips in the pot, the limpers each have 70 in chips and you have 75.

What's your move and plan? How was the preflop raise?


Any and all comments welcome.

Luke

[Cleveland Guy]

Hand # 1 - I push him all in. I was thinking a half pot bet, but then what if he raises all in? your gonna call anyways, so better to just push. If he is loose he is likely on A8, or something like JT. I would fear the J8 a little bit, but think I'm ahead

Hand #2 - I Fold. your PFR was fine - you need to be a little over the 3xBB because of the limpers, but if they are loose, one of the 2 of them probably hit the Jack, and aren't going to fold it. So your drwaing to 6 outs, or the backdoor straight. They might also have a PP, and aren't going to be convinced to release it.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

Early in the tournament, everyone still has about 100 in chips including you. The blinds are 2/4.

There are two limpers, the SB completes and you check in the BB with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop comes J /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

You lead and bet nearly the pot, 15 in chips. You are called in late position by a complete unknown, but a presumed little too loose player.

The turn brings the 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, completing the rainbow. You have 80 in chips left and your opponent has 50. The pot has 46 in chips.

What's your move and your plan? How was the flop bet?



[/ QUOTE ]

While you have top pair and decent kicker, I prefer to check this flop in early position early in a tournament. If no one bets, then lead the turn. If someone bets the flop, you can smooth call (your only scare cards Q or A) or check-raise.


[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:

Early in the tournament, everyone still has about 100 in chips including you. The blinds are 3/6.

2 poor, loose players limp to you on the button where you hold A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and raise to 25. Everyone except the 2 limpers fold.

3 of you to the flop of J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The 2 limpers check to you.

There is 84 in chips in the pot, the limpers each have 70 in chips and you have 75.

What's your move and plan? How was the preflop raise?



[/ QUOTE ]

Here, the play is either call pre-flop and try and flop an A or K, or raise all-in preflop and guarantee yourself a chance to see all 5 cards if called by pocket pair. By raising 1/4 your stack, you commit yourself to a pot in which you miss the flop 2/3 of the time.

[Lurshy]

Tough spots, nice post.

I think cleavland Guy has Hand 1 right. Put you opponent to a decision. You have him covered, and probably have him beat. If he calls any bet, he becomes pot stuck anyway.

Hand 2 - If I read it right, it was checked to you. You can see a free turn, but that is basically weak, giving up the pot if you miss. You don't mention reads on the limpers.

They could have limped with suited connectors, Ax, small PP, and called as they were already in and wanted to see a flop. I think they bet top pair, unless they have a poor kicker. They may have a small pair, Not a good drawing flop, but why let them pick up a draw with a free card?

I probably bet 30-40, if they missed completely, they go away. They shouldn't call with just a small pair, but often will especially with an A kicker. If they reraise, you have a decision - probably fold.

Hmmm, you may not want to listen to me, AK is a leak in my game.

[Cleveland Guy]

I misread hand #2 - and didn't see you are last to act.

Check the flop, the free card doesn't hurt you any.

[Luke]

Thanks for the comments.

In hand 1, betting twice the pot with top pair, good kicker at this stage of the tournament seems like a little much, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking. I'll think about it some more.

In hand 2, the limpers have checked to you, so at worst you'd check, not fold.

If you check the flop, a blank falls on the turn, and they check to you again, do you take a stab at that point?

Thanks again.

Luke

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2 - I Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's going to fold to the check? Negative implied odds of hitting a pair and thinking it's good?

I would check and bet if checked to again on the turn. I would feel okay folding my hand if they bet the turn.

[Cleveland Guy]

I already wrote I misread that there was no action to him. I tried to edit, but too late. I replied saying I'd check here.

Go play more softball in shorts why don't you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SossMan]

Hand 1:
I usually raise preflop if those limpers are in LP. I don't mind the check if they are MP or EP limpers. (or if at least one was a MP or EP) If they are both LPs, though, I like punishing them preflop with what is almost certainly not a dominated hand.

I like your flop bet.

On the turn, I think you are way ahead or way behind. The only scary draw is exactly T9.
I'm going to go against the grain here and check the turn and see what happens. I'm most likely calling his all in getting 2:1, but I don't see the benefit of betting out. He probably has 2-6 outs, and I think that it's safe enough to risk a free card in order to get him to try and push you off your "obvious flop bluff".
This will also get you some calls on the river that you wouldn't get on the turn. If it goes check check on the turn, I will bet out about t25 on a blank river card and see if I can't sell myself to a middle pair hand.

-SossMan

[SossMan]

4-4 last night....I learned how to hit opposite field...its a whole new world

[Cleveland Guy]

Me too. I'm a lefty, and usually dead pull. I found all I have to do is go that way 1 or 2 times during the double header. Just enough of a threat to keep the shift off of me.

I have gone from a .500 hitter to a .650 hitter because of this, but now I'm just bragging.

How many nights a week do you play?

[SossMan]

2

[Luke]

Thanks for the advice Sossman.

Now I'll give you some advice from my expertise:

There's an old baseball saying that carries nicely into slowpitch/high arc softball... "hit it where they ain't".

Luke

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice Sossman.

Now I'll give you some advice from my expertise:

There's an old baseball saying that carries nicely into slowpitch/high arc softball... "hit it where they ain't".

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

In the leagues I play in, you can hit it where they aint, hit it where they is, hit it where they might be...i doesn't really matter. Most of them look like Jose Canseco out there trying to field.

ka'doink

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice Sossman.

Now I'll give you some advice from my expertise:

There's an old baseball saying that carries nicely into slowpitch/high arc softball... "hit it where they ain't".

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

In the leagues I play in, you can hit it where they aint, hit it where they is, hit it where they might be...i doesn't really matter. Most of them look like Jose Canseco out there trying to field.

ka'doink

[/ QUOTE ]

My favorite play is the infield homer. - Grounder up the middle, 2B or SS makes a diving grab, gets up to throw it to 1st, but it does high and is against the fence. you run to second, and towards 3rd, the right fielder picks up the ball and fires it wide of 3B. You get to walk on home with no throw!

[sofere]

Sounds like my best little league highlight bout 15 years ago...walk-off grounder grandslam right past first baseman's foot. Guess he was doing his Bill Buckner impression.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like my best little league highlight bout 15 years ago...walk-off grounder grandslam right past first baseman's foot. Guess he was doing his Bill Buckner impression.

[/ QUOTE ]

it would have to be a really bad and/or slow team to have a walkoff inside the park HR.

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
Here, the play is either call pre-flop and try and flop an A or K, or raise all-in preflop and guarantee yourself a chance to see all 5 cards if called by pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Early in a tourney you would either call or go all-in with AKo in late position? In that situation putting in a quarter of your stack doesn't make you pot committed. And just calling leaves any iffy connectors and suited cards in the hand. Raising will get rid of those 9-10s and such. I don't think you get nearly enough value by stealing the bets with an all-in (maybe with an AQ)

[sofere]

Well I was 6 or 7 yrs old at the time /images/graemlins/cool.gif...Past 1st baseman's foot...overthrow to second, overthrow to third.

[Cleveland Guy]

WOW - we really hijacked this thread huh?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I was 6 or 7 yrs old at the time /images/graemlins/cool.gif...Past 1st baseman's foot...overthrow to second, overthrow to third.

[/ QUOTE ]

check my italics

[sofere]

ah, lol...i guess i just didn't put 2 and 2 together on that one...I was probably running a bit.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the comments.

In hand 1, betting twice the pot with top pair, good kicker at this stage of the tournament seems like a little much, but I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking. I'll think about it some more.

In hand 2, the limpers have checked to you, so at worst you'd check, not fold.

If you check the flop, a blank falls on the turn, and they check to you again, do you take a stab at that point?

Thanks again.

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 1, you're not betting twice the pot, because your opponent only has 50 left. You could bet 2357923570 chips and it would be the same as betting 50, which is a pot-sized bet.

[nolanfan34]

You have gotten some good advice already about hand one. And some OT thoughts on softball!

Let me make a quick point on hand 2.

In this type of a tournament, with the opponents you describe, I think it's extrememly important to think about who you're playing against before putting chips into the pot on the flop. Your description of the player types sounds similar to the guys I play with.

Against some of them, who I know view me as relatively tight, I will follow through with a bet on the flop. Keep in mind, most of your opponents don't understand the concept of pot odds. If you bet 25 again, they're not going to think "hmmm, that's a suspicious underbet". Most likely they're only going to think "he still likes his hand. What do I have again?" If you only bet 25, they're certainly not thinking, "well, the pot is laying me 4-1", etc.

So against opponents like that who I feel I can push off a hand, I'll bet if I think I can take it down right there. If not - and I think this is an important part of the decision making process - you have to decide whether you're willing to risk needing to catch an A or K. If I'm up against guys that I know are going to call me if they have a piece of the board, then I'll usually check and see the turn for free.

If checked to again, then I'll bet.

Keeping some of this in mind is something I've been trying to remember when playing in live events. The play online is generally a little better I think when it comes to tournaments. Yes, there are a lot of crappy players, but you just see even more people playing live that really have no thought process whatsoever when it comes to tournament play, IMO.

[Luke]

In hand 1, you're not betting twice the pot, because your opponent only has 50 left. You could bet 2357923570 chips and it would be the same as betting 50, which is a pot-sized bet.

Duh, of course. I created the\is scenario and I didn't even catch that detail. Thanks.

Luke

[Bdub]

Just to clarify, Wee Willie Keeler coined the phrase, "Hit is where they ain't." He is an old NY Giant. Hall of Famer, I believe. Good post on the poker side as well.
Cheers,
BW