those nottom leaves

[turnipmonster]

this happened a while ago and I meant to post it but never did. 5/10 6 max party, I raise in the CO with ATo and nottom 3 bets me on the button. blinds fold and so do I. bad?

--turnipmonster

[meow_meow]

Have to say that I would never, never fold here.

That said, this hand might get expensive if you flop top pair and are beat by better kicker or overpair. So, if your strategy on the flop is to check-fold unless you have 2 pair or better, then you are better off folding.

[Trix]

yes, it will invite more 3bets.

[turnipmonster]

maybe nottom will tell us if this was a good fold against him.....

[fsuplayer]

clever title.

I dont like it bc it will invite more 3 bets from everyone, as well as he could be 3 betting lots of different hands here.

66-AA
KJs and KQo(s)
A9s-AK

I think that with that range of hands, you should check out a flop.

btw turnip, could you PM me your handle?
i have a friend who is starting the 5-10 6 max with my help, so I can look for you when him (we) are playing. (ill send you his)

fsuplayer

[fyodor]

I clicked reply and then sat staring at the screen for a full minute. I have no idea how to express how bad I think your fold was.

[turnipmonster]

what hand range is he 3 betting me with? it may have been a very bad fold, no argument there. at the time, I thought the risk of domination coupled with the fact I am not going to get a lot of action if I actually hit and the lack of position made it a fold.

but, I am happy to be shown differently.

a good way of putting it was how ray zee states it in his stud8/O8 book. he says something like your hand may not be a percentage loser, but it is a playing loser. I felt that it would be hard to get to a showdown cheap with ace high, if I got action on a flopped ace I was probably beat and flopping a T is really the only thing I wanted to do and even then I was maybe behind. again I may be very wrong here.

--turnipmonster

[sfer]

Not if your name is Tommy.

[Analyst]

I think that you have to call his raise and at least see the flop. You're getting 6.5:1 (though post flop bets need to be at least considered), and the only hand where you're a greater dog than that is AA. Even against AKs, it's barely 3:1 against you, and only 2.5:1 if he has KK.

The problem is post-flop, where there doesn't seem to be any flop you particularly want to see other than KQJ. An ace high flop could cost you 2.5 BB but not have a simliar upside; same with a ten-high flop, and a rag flop brings problems of its own. I don't think that this overrides the need to call the pf raise, though.

[Benjamin]

Have to agree this was a bad fold. If you were talking about a full ring game, then maybe your fold is good, but the lessened standards of 6-max mean you have to call. As Analyst points out, the odds are just too good to pass up.

I'd guess he might 3-bet with a tighter range than mentioned above, and that you aren't looking too hot against that range, but still, you have to see the flop. I'd guess something like AJs+, AQ+, KQs, 99+, and maybe a little lower than that at times. If you pair the flop, then I'd just be careful not to spew chips. And I'd definitely release if I don't hit the flop.

B.

[fyodor]

fsu already posted a list of possible holdings. Half those holdings do not want to see an Ace on the flop. Probably more than half because if an Ace flops and you have an Ace it makes it more likely he has one of the hands without an Ace.

Plus there is the image thing.

I makes no difference who he is or what he might have. If you have cards you are prepared to raise with preflop you can't possibly be unprepared to call a 3 bet without seeing the flop. (unless you want to see your picture in the next poker dictionary next to 'weak/tight') /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[turnipmonster]

I think you are definitely right against an unknown. but this is a very solid 2+2er, and I have a VPIP of 18% which I assume nottom knows (too tight, I know). so I think fsuplayer's range of 3 betting hands is a little too wide.

--turnipmonster

[fyodor]

Something that was pointed out to me recently was that whether your vpip is 18% or 45% if your pfr is 14% you are probably raising with the same cards either way.

[Nottom]

I honestly don't even remember that ever happening so I can't tell you what I had (if you happen to remember the game # I can look it up) but I suck bad enough that I wouldn't have folded to me.

[Schneids]

There are a few players I would make this fold to.

Basically, the math might work out if your call puts you all-in PF. I would speculate it's around even money. However, I think your positional disadvantage against a good player can make this hand from EV-neutral into a small EV loser, having to actually play out the hand postflop and all...

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a VPIP of 18%

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking this off the subject a little bit, I am curious if you run into tables that won't give you any/much action because of your tightness.

B. ... guessing most players don't really notice

[turnipmonster]

when I first started playing the 5/10 I thought this might have been the case. now I realize that my opponents probably just couldn't beat jack high when they folded. I'm pretty sure no one except maybe people tracking my play notice or care. I feel like I get a good amount of action, though I probably pick up a few more pots than most uncontested. it seems like people try to bluff me a lot, not sure if that is the case for everyone in these games. at any rate, I see a lot of showdowns.

I am really working on loosening up some.

--turnipmonster

[mack848]

I always find it hugely encouraging when I read posts which suggest how poor many players are at mid-limits. It makes me feel like, as an enthusiastic beginner who is keen to learn and willing to put in the effort, these limits may well be attainable.
Now where's my copy of SSHE?!

[turnipmonster]

your average 3/6 player is nowhere near half as retarded as your average 5/10 6maxer.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I get a good amount of action, though I probably pick up a few more pots than most uncontested. it seems like people try to bluff me a lot, not sure if that is the case for everyone in these games. at any rate, I see a lot of showdowns.

I am really working on loosening up some.


[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. I'm guessing the bluffing happens to everyone: I sure see a lot of it. I've been running at about 23 VPIP and have been trying to tighten up a smidge. However my LAGgy side keeps shining through and instead I usually struggle to rein it in and keep it at 23. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

B.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I always find it hugely encouraging when I read posts which suggest how poor many players are at mid-limits. It makes me feel like, as an enthusiastic beginner who is keen to learn and willing to put in the effort, these limits may well be attainable.
Now where's my copy of SSHE?!

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that the 5/10 game is completely filled with poor players, yet I couldn't hack it makes me feel like quitting poker. Unfortunately, thats not really an option (and I don't really want it to be becasue I still enjoy playing the game) so instead I have to run back to 3/6 with my tail between my legs. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[turnipmonster]

dude, how bad a swing did you have?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

dude, how bad a swing did you have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well its not so much a bad swing as the fact that I never had any good swings. 75K hands and a win rate of less than 1BB/100 doesn't do it for me.