Interesting 15-30 hand.....

Hello All,


Here is an interesting hand that I played in a rather loose 15-30 game at the Woods. Utimately I think(pretty much know) I got lucky in this hand by sucking out on 5th but I would like to hear what the forum thinks about my play of this hand. ( Except for the river. I am disgusted with myself on that one. You really don't need to comment cause I already know )


Anywhoo..


4s is low who brings it in for $5. This player is a pretty good player.

10s folds

5c calls the $5

10d calls the $5. TOTAL FISH

7s calls the $5

I am next to act with Ah(JhJs). I complete to $15.

6c folds after me

Back to bring in who makes it $30.

5c folds.

10d calls the $30. (Mr. Fish)

7s folds.

I RE-RAISE to $45.

bring and Mr. Fishy both call.


4th

---

Mr Fishy pairs his doorcard 10d10h

I get (JhJs)Ah9d

Bring in 4s2c


Fishy bets the double bet $30.

I raise to $60 and bring in calls and fishy calls.


5th

----

Mr Fishy -10d10h9s

I get (JhJs)Ah9dJc

Bring in 4s2c3c


Fishy checks. I bet $30. Bring-in raises to $60. Fishy calls. I re-raise to $90. Bring-in caps at $120. Fishy calls and of course I call.


6th

----

Mr Fishy -10d10h9s2d

I get (JhJs)Ah9dJcQs

Bring in 4s2c3c7c


Fishy checks. I bet $30. Bring in raises to $60. Fishy calls. I make it $90. Bring in just calls and of course Fishy calls.


River I catch Qc giving me jacks-full.

Fishy checks. I check for some idiotic reason hoping to check-raise ( FLAME AWAY if you would like. I already know )Bring in checks.


Fishy turns over Kings and Tens.

I turn over my boat and bring in mucks while mumbling. ( I think he was rolled. That's why I stated above that I think I sucked out )


Comments about my play would be appreciated. Particularly my raise against the paired doorcard on 4th. ( By the way... when the bring in called that raise I knew I was behind. I was very fortunate to pick up this $970 pot. ( even though it should have been $60 more ))


Hopefully I didn't screw this post up..


Thanks,

CJ

4th

---

Mr Fishy pairs his doorcard 10d10h


Fishy bets the double bet $30.


The hand should have ended here. It doesn't matter that you think your opponent is a fish. You should have folded.


You shouldn't play poker by a set of rules. But, if there's one "rule" you should always follow, it's Don't play against paired door cards in 7-stud.


Why do so many otherwise good players have difficulty exercising the disciipline it takes to fold a "good" hand when an opponent pairs their doorcard? The amount of money saved when you are behind more than makes up for those few incorrect FTOP folds you may make.


Forget about the rolled-up deuces. Do you realize how big an underdog you were against the presumed (K,K)T,T?

i dont necessarily agree with you here. if the opponent has a dead ten then the most likely hand is K's or A's in the pocket. CJ has an ace so if he thinks that fishy has K's then he has an overcard and can play if he can knock the third player out.


of course in this particular situation since the rolled up hand called a double bet on third street there is very little possibility that he will fold and when he calls on fourth street then CJ's hand should be folded. But if it were heads up, or if the situation was different then i think CJ made the right play.


Pat

Even if it's heads-up, you shouldn't continue with a pair of Jacks/Ace kicker against Kings & Tens on fourth street. It's a significant losing play since it's going to cost you so much to draw and you're only drawing to 5 outs.


What you can do is play a pair Jacks/Ace kicker against a long pair of Kings. The hand is playable in this situation because you will win with Jacks-up against an unimproved pair of Kings often enough to make it worthwhile. When your opponent has already made two pair, you've lost much of your winning chances.

you are right of course. oops!


Pat

Dynasty/Pat,


I think you are both getting off track here.


This opponent could of easily just had his one pair. Hence my raise. This is the same opponent who earlier I saw call 3 bets cold on 3rd with 742.


It was a large pot at the point the bet came to me. I could have easily had the best hand. Folding was not an option ( yet ). While Dynasty's advice above concerning folding to paired doorcards is generally correct, This is an instance where ( I believe ) folding can't be correct!! 1) We have weak opponent who does not value his money 2)one of his 10s were dead 3)We have a large pot


As far as the other opponent. When he called my raise on 4th. Thats when I knew I was screwed. If I don't catch the Jack on 5th ( or possibly an Ace ). I'm over with the hand.


Later,

CJ


P.S. - The games at Mohegan today were insane. I felt like I was playing craps. I had open trip 7's one hand and got 5 callers. /images/smile.gif Everyone was in the patriotic spirit I guess

You should just about never take on a paired door card if your own pair is in the hole and you have an overcard kicker showing. The reason is that you can't make two pair, except on seventh, without your opponent knowing it. This makes it a lot easier for your opponent to get away from a losing hand than for you to get away from one. So you're in a partial reverse-implied-odds situation here. You may win some pots, but you won't make any money in the long run, unless your opponent is a total idiot.


TRLS

I find that limp-re-raises on third street tend to represent hands that are all over pocket Jacks. Also, you're not going to get Fishy out with your re-raise. I would just call the bring-in's raise on third.


On fourth, I think you have a fold. There is another player yet to act, and he probably has a better hand than you. Sure, the other guy has a dead Ten, but he can still easily have you beat. The pot's not huge by any means. I'd let it go.

Tsk tsk, people.


Hint: There are at most four hands the bring-in can have, and with most good players, only two.


Work it out.


Keep in mind that CJ characterized the bring-in as "pretty good". We're talking pretty good 15-30 here, not pretty good 3-6.


TRLS

Both Andy B and I say it's an easy fold on 4th street. Do you disagree? I certainly wouldn't fold on 3rd street simply because the bring-in reraised. A pocket pair with a suited Ace kicker isn't a hand you should fold here.


Granted, I focused my discussion on the paired 10 doorcard, but I was interested in getting feedback on why so many otherwise good players continue on when that happens.

You said it...


"Unless your opponent is a complete idiot"


CJ

Hello Again All,


I figured when I posted this hand it would start some debate and it seems as though I was correct. Here are my thought processes /reasoning for the hand.


3rd

----

Pretty straightforward. Argument could be made about the 3 bet here BUT what was not mentioned in the original post was that my opponents had seen me raise just about every time I had an Ace on third ( which was actually quite a bit ). Therefore the bring in would re-raise (probably) with a wider variety of hands than what most people would think at first.


4th

----

Obviously this street is the reason I posted the hand, but for different reasons than I think you think.


I was NEVER really concerend with the paired-doored tens. This guy was an idiot... Comeplete MORON. I probably should have elaborated more on him in my original post but I though "Mr. Fishy" did the trick. If he actually had the real deal against me than so be it. It wouldv'e ( and did ) come back to me eventually.


My dilemma with this street was the bring-in who had re-raised. Like I said, he could have re-raised with a wide variety of hands...and yes some likely ones that can beat Jacks. BUT WHEN I RAISE a paired doorcard, he can't conceivably call unless he CAN beat the Aces which I was representing. So I really raised for a few reasons 1) I could easily still have the best hand 2) I really wanted to get the hand heads-up with Fish at that point 3) I wanted to know exactly where I stood with the bring-in.


I believe someone posted above that they would just call the 4th street bet. I think calling is the WORST of the three choices here.


Dynasty and Andy B I believe said they would fold on 4th. I will never knock someone for folding here..It is the "safest" play, but I really do believe in this circumstance that folding cannot be correct as I stated in a post above to Dynasty. Also someone posted that the pot was small on 4th. What is your idea of a large pot for 15-30???? There was 3 players in for 3 bets at 3rd plus 2 players dead money..plus a big bet to me on 4th...thats a good sized pot too me....


Wether or not I played the hand 'Right' or 'Wrong'... Thats why I did what I did. Hopefully I clarified a couple of things here.

As always Thanks for the responses.


Later,

CJ

Mmmmmm.....Donuts.


I've reread my post a couple of times, and the only thing I can find wrong with it is that I say "beat" instead of "beaten." This is something that I try to be careful about, but I have no doubt been conditioned by countless rereadings of 2+2 books, not to mention this board. I'll try to be more careful in the future, but I don't think that this is what you were referring to.


I assume that you are referring to the fact that the bring-in limped and then re-raised. I take issue with your contention that he could only do this with very few hands. Laying that aside for the moment, are you suggesting that CJ lay down his hand on third street for one more bet when he's getting 7:1 and his call closes the action? I mean, if you know that the other guy can only have pocket Aces or rolled-up Fours, laying it down on third seems reasonable, but if people see you making those kinds of laydowns, you're apt to get run over.


I think that if you are contemplating a fold on third street, it is very important to consider how the bring-in perceives CJ. From reading his posts, I would submit that CJ is, at the least, a reasonably good player.* I gather that the bring-in is a familiar opponent. If he is, and if he is a pretty good player, he would likely know that CJ is a reasonably good player. Reasonably good players will raise on third street with an Ace in the door with a lot of hands that aren't Aces. For my part, depending on the lineup, this may include any live pocket pair, a three-flush, AKQ, etc. Maybe even less if I haven't played a hand for half an hour. If CJ has been raising with a wide range of hands when he has an Ace in the door, the bring-in might re-raise with a range of hands wider than what you suggest. I've been known to occasionally limp/re-raise with a three-flush, although generally not against an Ace. Admittedly, I probably wouldn't re-raise with anything less than a pair of Queens in this particular spot, but I could see doing so with somewhat less (perhaps the other two jacks--DOH!), depending on my perception of CJ. Of course, the bring-in were to do this with, say, pocket Queens, he would have to believe that he could get the Ten out. Given CJ's characterization of this opponent, the bring-in should realize that this isn't likely, but I've been known to overestimate the respect that my opponents will give my raises.


On balance, I don't think that CJ can get away from the hand on third street. I do cite the probable strength of the bring-in's hand among the reasons to fold on fourth street. If I have misunderstood what you mean, by all means, let me know.


* I consider myself no more than a reasonably good player. I do have the good fortune to play in some of the softest games ever assembled.

The pot is big, but it isn't huge. It is not big enough to continue against a paired door card and a hand that is almost certainly bigger than yours, and quite possibly much bigger than yours. You're getting 6:1 on a call, but I really don't think that's enough in this spot. Raising may well be better than calling, but I really think that folding is the best option.

In 15-30, a "pretty good" player will have AA4 or 444 for the limp-raise. There's some chance he has KK4 or QQ4, but it's not enough of a chance to overcome the terrible cost of playing against AA4 or 444.


He certainly doesn't have a worse hand than QQ4. It's a 5-way pot with a known calling station "protecting" it. The bring-in is not screwing around here. He's not taking a shot or trying to steal. He's not value-raising with a 3-flush because he'd rather keep callers in at this point, buy the next card cheap, and not run up his implied odds. So he thinks he has the best hand or could have it.


If he doesn't have one of the four hands mentioned above, he's just not a "pretty good" player.


So you really ought to fold on third, if you read the situation correctly. Your jacks with their suited ace kicker may look pretty, but from an EV standpoint they're crap.


TRLS

CJ, have the stud games at both foxwoods and MS been this good lately.

I know the last few times I played 10-20 15-30 I couldn't believe how loose the players were.


thanks

CJ:


Even if all he has is the pair of 10s, what do you think that the bring in would have re-raised you with on 3rd (when you represented a pair of aces) and then called on 4th vs. a paired door card that could be trip 10s or two pair? He probably wouldn't have re-raised on a draw, so you should put him on a big buried pair or trips, most likely the big buried pair. I think on 4th street, when "Fishy" makes the double-bet, I would have to fold, because not only do I not think I'm in the lead, I may have the third best hand with a dead ace kicker. There's another hand coming around the bend, and I can't get too excited about a pair of Jacks.

Hey, we like cookies too. I'm repeating myself, but


(1) CJ is getting about 7:1 on his call of the bring-in's raise.


(2) His call closes the action.


(3) If people notice him raising and then folding like you suggest, he's apt to get run over.


(4) I don't think that "pretty good" players normally play in such a way that you can narrow down their hands something that specific.


Had I seen CJ raising with a lot of hands, as I gather he was, I would re-raise in the bring-in's spot with pocket Queens. I've certainly seen other players make similar plays. I don't think that a three-flush is entirely out of the question. Who knows, the other two guys might come along for the ride. I wouldn't fault someone for folding in CJ's spot, but I wouldn't do it.


I have, in my lifetime, completed the bet and then folded for one more bet on third street exactly twice. Both times were in the late stages of a tournament, and I was stealing with nothing. Raise and muck is not part of my arsenal, and I don't think that I'm giving up a lot.

> But, if there's one "rule" you should always follow, it's Don't play against paired door

cards in 7-stud


If this is in your rule book. I would suggest that your rule book is seriously flawed.


this includes you also Lin. you wrote:


>The reason is that you can't make two pair, except on seventh, without your opponent

knowing it.


you do have valid points Lin . And you can make trips or an even bigger hidden hand

where the profit margin can be substantial. and also you may not be facing trips at all.


However if you are forced to play this heads up against a uninspired straight forward

(non deceptive) player whom you don’t have a accurate read on I am in total agreement

with your (Lin's) assessment.


>This makes it a lot easier for your opponent to get away from a losing hand than for you

to get away from one.


Discipline is one cure for this problem. As well as your ability to accurately read your

opponents which may be considered another. These I feel are a few of the keys to sure

footings on this slippery slope


wombat6


Please see pgs 104, 266 7CSFAP

You have said absolutely nothing about "why people fold too often to paired door cards." Nothing. The sections in 7CS4AP do cite exceptions to the general rule that one should fold when an opponent pairs his door card, but this hand doesn't fit the exceptions. CJ can't beat Tens-up. He has outs against Tens-up, sure, but there is also the bring-in to worry about. If you would like to offer some reasons why CJ should continue in this spot, I'm all ears, but don't come in here saying that we weak-tight 2+2ers fold to paired door cards too often without some supporting evidence.

O.K. , how about that they don’t really know or understand the actual percentage of time

that their opponents truly have trips? Or they are just plain chicken. ?


*Hint* 66.66% of the time is way WAY off base. A player who will *only* play pairs and 3 BIG cards to a flush is about a 57% favorite to have trips in such a case. And to always fold to a paired door card is truly a horribly weak way to play on 4th street. Personally I would love a table full of players that react like this. And I'm confident I'm not alone in this assertion.


However I will probably fold to such a player who has (re)raised on 3rd AND paired a

overcard or major live card on 4th street. Especially if the 3rd street raise came from a player in early position or from a position just beyond that of my immediate right. Although I may take off a card (or perhaps reraise for information / intimidation ) with a bigger hidden pair or over call a big draw if last to play with a big loose calling field and no fear of a reraise from behind me. There are many factors that may affect my willingness to play (Foremost knowledge of my opponents [emphasis on pluralization of the word opponents]) on this or on into the later streets. These are factors of which you should be well aware. And if not, perhaps, you might be well advised to just ditch the hand now.


In conclusion: (please suffer my repetition) I’m not saying, neglect all consideration as to

whether your opponent may have trips or not. But rather utilize your other analytical

(card) and psychological (player) reading skills to devine an appropriate possibility of

whether you do or do not in fact face those terrible triplets. To rely on a knee jerk

wholesale action such as automatically folding would be veiwed by an astute opponent as a complete lack of ascendancy on your part and one I would never recommend. However do as you please. Just remember there's no crying in poker.


How's that testy?


wombat6+

It is true that a significant percentage of the time that your opponent pairs his door card, he will not have trips. When he does have trips, however, you are usually so far behind that continuing is very expensive. When he doesn't have trips, he probably has a better hand than you anyway. Even if he has (Kh4h)7h7c against your (Qs3d)Qc2s, I don't think that you're any kind of a favorite. You fold to paired door cards because the sum of the possible situations usually adds up to -EV. You might be slightly ahead, slightly behind, or way behind. You don't know which, the pot is small, and he has bet into you. I usually fold in that spot, and I don't think that my astute opponents think anything other than that I'm a reasonably good poker player. The astute ones tend to fold to paired door cards too. Continuing against paired door cards is, as a general rule, a significant error, especially early in the hand when the pot isn't too big. Of course, I wouldn't advocate doing anything blindly. My reading of the sections of 7CS4AP that you cite is that one should rarely continue against paired door cards. I have trouble believing that anyone could read them any other way.


As for this specific hand, are you advocating continuing on fourth street?

Poker hinges on making the right decisions. (I do agree the the proper decision in this

case may be to fold) in a case by case manner with insufficient evidence. those who make

good decisions beat those how make bad decisions. when you neglect to make a decision

or rely on some sort of default program. (although this default program may out perform

some other default program) . Sort of like no tolerance polices . you lose expectancy to

those who would make or are able to make a more informed series of decisions. As a

result you underperform. It is the ability to make correct decisions that separate the wheat

from the chaff in this game. when one neglects to attempt a decision they remain on the

threshing floor until tossed into the fire. Simply you must attempt to devine the correct

decision and then follow through and make it.


Why go to the trouble to write 6 pages 7CSFAP and delineate a dozen or so conditions

for playing against a open pr on 4th. if it were truly almost never correct to play against

them.


I would venture that your more astute opponents are probably ramming small pairs with

crap right through you with surprising regularity.


My argument can be summated by pg.108 p5 .line 1 from 7CSFAP.

And depending on your knowledge of your opponents and their playing style, continuing

very well may be correct more often than not.


wombat6+