Some odd spots [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

J.R.

10-27-2004, 02:32 PM

Just some random spots, I don't think there is too much to discuss here but have trouble finding interesting stuff to post, so I am forcing myself to post some hands I didn't think were obviously good or bad (except maybe hand 6) from my last session. Thanks

Hand 1 - kinda loose as its 4 handed, don't recall much else

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero ?

Hand 2 - BB was unkown as of yet

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG posts a blind of $5.
UTG (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ?

Hands 3-4 I think I don't care for the preflop, but my vpip is 18.8 and I am trying to loosen up more, do you limp suited aces this low UTG (or raise- if so, when)? Both tables were fairly loose, although I felt better about limping in Hand 3 than in Hand 4 due to the texture. I usually fold (75%) or raise (25%) suited aces from A6s-A8s depending on the table and my image. I raise with kickers above these and fold with kickers below these below UTG.

Hand 3 - I hate check-folding. Opponent seemed decent.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Hand 4 - river seemed ok at the time, but not sure now- not much read on the BB

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, 4 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (2.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (2.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (4.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Hand 5 - I always pop this preflop from here. Is a flop 3-bet better than call/fold. The player seemed to have a bit above average aggression, but I didn't see him check-raise that often and I had been fairly aggressive preflop up to here. How often is a flop 3-bet with an OK ace a viable alternative here, as well as a flop check?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Hand 6 - I liked this the whole way, comments?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (7.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets

Hand 7

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP raises, Hero?

Hand 8 I think I try to bet in the face of weakness too much, so I didn't bet the turn, (but I should have bet the flop IMO- I didn't realize the UTG player was a poster as opposed to a limper). Re: river, wouldn't an A, 5 or 3 have spoken up already? Can I expect to get called here by worse more often than I can induce a bluff- but wouldn't someone willing to bluff the river have bet the flop or turn?

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $5.
UTG (poster) checks, 4 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (1.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (1.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero?

Joe826

10-27-2004, 02:47 PM

This is how I handle these situations, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can correct me if im' wrong.

hand 1 - i call with my overs and backdoor flush draw, and fold the turn unimproved.

hand 2 - i bet the turn, fold to a check/raise, and check behind on the river unimproved.

hand 3 - i make it a point to never open limp in short games, in this case i would probably fold, although calling and raising probably aren't that bad. other then that i play the same.

hand 4 - bet the river

hand 5 - i would play the same here as well. i'd hate to 3-bet and then it get it capped. i do think 3-betting in these situations has it's place, but not here IMO.

hand 6 - i think this is fine. if i had last action i might check behind though. maybe i'm a little paranoid. i wonder what others think in terms of a value bet.

hand 7 - i'd fold. your odds aren't great.

hand 8 - like you said, i'd probably take a shot at this on the flop. i'd definetly bet this river as well, I can think of quite a few worse hands that would call here since it looks like you're trying to buy it. you're really only worried about a stray K or an 8, but i have a hard time believing UTG would check hands with either of those.

turnipmonster

10-27-2004, 03:14 PM

hand 1: I estimate around 4 outs? (.5 outs for overs + 1 out for backdoor flush). this is pretty borderline I think, but I probably fold. I think even giving .5 outs for every over is high.

hand 2: bets and checks the river would be my line.

hand 3: my vpip is almost the same as yours and I'm trying to loosen up too, but I think this is weak for UTG though. anyone have stats that this is profitable?

hand 4: checking river is pretty player dependent, I think it's ok though. curious to see how many value bet there.

hand 5: I play it the same.

hand 6: like it.

hand 7: getting 7-1 immediate, but effective odds worsen this situation. I think calling here is -EV, but am open to being proven wrong.

--turnipmonster

joker122

10-27-2004, 04:08 PM

Hey J.R.

Hand 1: I'd raise and take a free river. You average opponent isn't sophisticated enough to play a 6 like this. I could fold to a 3bet from SB or BB though.

2: HU I bet this turn pretty much everytime. I could fold to a CR too.

3. I don't mind this at all. Pot is small, you have no kicker, scary board. But I'd probably call sometimes and fold to a heart river, or call all the way down sometimes as well. After all, you don't want to be known as the "folder."

4: I absolutely hate this limp, and am very surprised you made it. I also don't understand your river play.

5: Ever since I've been playing 10/20 I've been 3betting this flop alot more often. You definitely can't do it 100% of the time, however.

6: I would check/call this river.

7. Fold.

8. I would bet - you'll be surprised the hands that will call.

J.R.

10-27-2004, 04:42 PM

Joker,

Re hand 3 and 4, why is the first limp better than the second? I really didn't care for either, just something I felt like trying (my VPIP needs to come up in the sb and bb against raises raises, not come up utg), but really dislike in retrospect. I had been Mr. no open-limp for a while, then tried it in a few places (didn't like it), and now feel like there are very few spots (maybe medium pairs in a loose passive game) where I will limp utg. On the river in hand 4 I chop or lose to an A, the flush draw doesn't call, but a 7 does if it got this far. I like it less now that I am distant and more objective, but was running poorly at this time and I played it meekly.

Would you check over-call in hand 6, or just check and call a bet, not a bet and a call?

J.R.

10-27-2004, 04:48 PM

turnip,

I hate the UTG limping, I kinda tried somethign new and am now pretty anti-open limping again, just wanted to see if anybody had any thoughts.

Re: hand 1, I thought all 3 options were close, but I think I can call with implied odds (although I hate a spade), and if I can call, I can raise (which also may let me get out of trouble down the line if I get 3-bet). I really didn't think the bet was from trips and the overcaller wasn't much of a consideration, so I raised.

J.R.

10-27-2004, 04:54 PM

Joe,

Re hand 5: In what spots with decent aces (no AK/AQ), do you think the 3-bet becomes viable? I like it against a frequent flop check-raiser, as generally see this check-raise as indictaing the player has a small pocket pair or thin peice of the board and hopes I have overcards. The flush draw and straight possibilities on this hand, as well as the lack of cards in the proverbial playing zone further made me think this could be a semi-bluff check-raise and a good spot to 3-bet (I had been fairly active preflop as well).

Grisgra

10-27-2004, 05:33 PM

1) I might call just to see if a J or T hits, or another diamond, but you should probably fold. SB could easily have TT or better. I'd put the BB on overcards or a draw, but he could easily have a six. Yeah, fold.

2) Usually I'd bet it, if raised, probably fold, but the pot is so big I can see wanting a showdown in case he's tricky. Hmmm. Actually, checking behind here, and then just calling the river isn't horrible. It's probably correct. Any hand that you get to call, you're probably losing to, and you might induce a river bluff. (Hey, these hands are making me think . . . )

3) He could be getting creative with something like K /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, but I think you're beat. I fold it. In general I don't think it's a huge crime to limp UTG with a weak Axs on a passive table.

4) If you had raised pf, and he had called, then I would probably check behind on the river. But because you've given him no reason to suspect an ace . . . he could have a pocket pair or just paired the 7. I think this is tough, I await comments that you (and I) would/did play this weak-tight.

Hand #5: Almost every time I three-bet in this situation, I'm beat unless I hit a ten or ace. So while it's neat and tricky and aggressive and all that [censored], it's probably bad, and you probably played it okay against any but the most LAG-y or tricky of players.

Hand #6: Ugh. You raised pf, there's an ace out there, and they called the flop and the turn. And one guy already checked the river. Unless they're super-weak, someone has an ace. Could be that they were both on draws, though, in which case your bet doesn't get you anything. I check this one through, and if I see the BB show K2o and I take it, I'm not kicking myself for not betting the river. More often than not the button will take it with A5o and think himself a genius for coldcalling with it.

Hand #7: SB bets his 7 or 8, BB raises with his draw (or switch those) . . . and Hero Folds.

Hand #8: I bet the turn here. Hell, I bet the flop in a heartbeat, it's so raggedy. But I check the river, hoping to induce a bluff.

Whew.

J.R.

10-27-2004, 05:57 PM

Grisga,

Hand 1: "SB could easily have TT or better." Sure its possible (I detect no sarcasm /images/graemlins/smile.gif), but "easily", much less anything other than unlikely? SB merely called a button raise in a 4-handed game and bet out on a connected middle card suited flop, are you giving him too much credit?

Hand 2: "Any hand that you get to call, you're probably losing to, and you might induce a river bluff." With 2 hearts and a raggedy baord- isn't it possible, perhaps approaching likely, that another call (and no raise) is possibly 2 hearts or overcards like JT. Wouldn't inducing a bluff be better with a hand that is more likely to be way ahead or behind with an aggressive oppponent, something like top pair with no draws on board when the middle card of the flop pairs on the turn?

Hand 4: I dislike the river check as well.

Hand 6: if you check, the button bets and the BB calls, do you call or fold?

Hand 8: "But I check the river, hoping to induce a bluff." What hand will bluff now after I have chekced the flop and turn? Wouldn't a bluff have taken there shot already?

Grisgra

10-27-2004, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Grisga,

Hand 1: "SB could easily have TT or better." Sure its possible (I detect no sarcasm /images/graemlins/smile.gif), but "easily", much less anything other than unlikely? SB merely called a button raise in a 4-handed game and bet out on a connected middle card suited flop, are you giving him too much credit?

Hand 2: "Any hand that you get to call, you're probably losing to, and you might induce a river bluff." With 2 hearts and a raggedy baord- isn't it possible, perhaps approaching likely, that another call (and no raise) is possibly 2 hearts or overcards like JT. Wouldn't inducing a bluff be better with a hand that is more likely to be way ahead or behind with an aggressive oppponent, something like top pair with no draws on board when the middle card of the flop pairs on the turn?

Hand 4: I dislike the river check as well.

Hand 6: if you check, the button bets and the BB calls, do you call or fold?

Hand 8: "But I check the river, hoping to induce a bluff." What hand will bluff now after I have chekced the flop and turn? Wouldn't a bluff have taken there shot already?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #1: Might be giving him too much credit, but I think he's certainly either beating you or has more outs than you do.

Hand #2: Obviously if he has a couple of hearts, you should bet. If he just has a couple of overcards and will probably fold, then if you bet he'll either play back (which sucks) or fold . . . but if you check the turn and he misses his six outs, he may bet and you get another bet that way.

Which is more likely to get you $ is, as they say, player dependent. I actually usually bet in this situation, but I wonder about checking behind. You're guaranteed a showdown this way for just one bet. If he has an eight, he might checkraise you, and unless you foolishly plan on calling, you'll get no chance to see whether the river brings you an A or Q.

Don't think this is a crucial decision.

Hand #6: I call, expecting to lose but there's a chance I'll see KT and Qx. Pot is too big to fold to one bet here, though. If I check, though, it's possible I'll get a free showdown with the worst hand.

Hand #8: I've seen random aces here both bet in this spot, and call in this spot. If you bet he probably folds. If you check he probably checks behind and you win, but maybe he bluffs. Completely player-dependent which one is most profitable. I hope that by acting SO weak that I induce a bluff, though.

joker122

10-27-2004, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Re hand 3 and 4, why is the first limp better than the second?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't even notice the other limp. They are both bad.

[ QUOTE ]
On the river in hand 4 I chop or lose to an A, the flush draw doesn't call, but a 7 does if it got this far. I like it less now that I am distant and more objective, but was running poorly at this time and I played it meekly.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you saying here?

[ QUOTE ]
Would you check over-call in hand 6, or just check and call a bet, not a bet and a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call button's bet only if BB folded.

J.R.

10-27-2004, 10:24 PM

"On the river in hand 4 I chop or lose to an A, the flush draw doesn't call, but a 7 does if it got this far."

This is the limited reasoning that was going thru my mind during the hand.

"I like it less now that I am distant and more objective, but was running poorly at this time and I played it meekly."

This is my current perspective on the aforementioned line of thought.

"I would call button's bet only if BB folded."

My thoughts as well.

Thanks to everybody for taking the time to respond

joker122

10-27-2004, 10:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"On the river in hand 4 I chop or lose to an A, the flush draw doesn't call, but a 7 does if it got this far."

This is the limited reasoning that was going thru my mind during the hand.

"I like it less now that I am distant and more objective, but was running poorly at this time and I played it meekly."

This is my current perspective on the aforementioned line of thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh ok, I actually thought this was in refference to the other Ax hand where you folded to the turn raise.

Nate tha' Great

10-28-2004, 01:07 AM

1. Meh, I suppose I take a card off for table image reasons. Folding would probably be better for pocketbook reasons.

2. Bet. I'm more apt to check behind when the turn card coordinates with the flop, and not when the flop is coordinated to begin with. He could easily have called the flop with just overcards and I don't want to give out a free card.

3. I don't think that I like limping here, particularly with such a weak kicker. I also don't know that I like the fold on the turn, as a lot of opponents would have raised the flop with a four-flush, especially against a limper.

4. Value bet. I think you'll be called by a 7 or something inexplicable more often than you'll get called by an Ace.

5. Preflop is standard. Occasionally I'll just call this down the whole way if the flush does not come but your line is the norm.

6. Seems good.

7. I don't think you have enough to call at 6:1 and not closing the action, even with the backdoor flush.

8. I'd go ahead and bet, but I don't think that it matters much.