2/4 Stud Hand

This is an exceptional 35 big bet stud hand that I played last night. Assume that this table of six players is somewhat better than most 2/4 players. There is no one getting too out of line but this is not a world class table either. Anyways, the hand.


On third street your the bring in with the 5 of clubs.

The hands are:

you - AA5

player 1 - xxQ

player 2 - xx10

player 3 - xxK

You bring it in. P1 calls, P2 calls, P3 raises. You re-raise your pocket Aces, P1 calls two bets cold and now P2 with the ten caps the betting. P3 calls and you call. Fourth street-

you - AA5A

P1 - xxQ5off

P2 - xx1010

P3 - xxKJ

P2 with the tens checks. P3 bets, what do you do? I raised, P1 folds, P2 calls, P3 calls. Fifth -

you - AA5A8

P2 - xx10106

P3 - xxKJ4

P2 bets, P3 calls, what do you do? I raised, P2 calls, P3 calls. Sixth.

you - AA5A85

P2 - xx101062

P3 - xxKJ4J

P3 bets, what do you do? I raised, P2 calls, P3 calls. Seventh street - Nothing changes.

P3 bets again, what do you do? I raised, P2 re-raises, P3 calls, what do you do? I capped, both call.


How do you think I played this hand?

All replies are welcome.

Peace

Goodie

You played just fine. You might not raise on fourth street so that you can raise on fifth street, but since you got called on fourth and got to raise on fifth anyway, it worked out well. If it got down to two players, I'd probably only go about six bets on the end. If the other guy shows me quads, that's life.

Once these people show an inclination to call a lot of raises on third street, I think playing the hand as fast as possible once you make trips aces is the best play, because it will get more money in the pot. So you did just fine.


Sometimes it's right to just call when you make trips with a buried pair on fourth, but you do this when a raise might knock out weak hands that could make a pair or two pair on fifth and pay you off. In this case, everyone's acting as if they have strong hands so slowplaying on fourth would probably just cost you extra profit.


TRLS

With an open pair showing on fourth street, the incentive to put off raising until fifth is reduced. Presumably the player who bet bet a full bet of $4 instead of the half-bet of $2; certainly our hero facing a $2 bet ought to raise the full $4 if he's going to raise at all.

1. there is no reason to raise on fourth street to knock players out. if they have very little the paired door card will scare them off enough, and your hand is strong enough that you dont want to knock players out.


2. raise on fifth street OK, but usually tis means that you will get checked to on sixth street, so you can wait to raise on sixth also. i mention this only as a consideration, but the raise is Ok.


3. having read the rest of the hand, all i can say is this must have been one hell of a game!! since it is clear that your raises are not scaring anyone you should keep raising.


Pat

Since the 10 paired his doorcard, I would have raised and reraised at every opportunity in the hopes of getting into a raising war with trip 10s.


I don't know what the others are calling with but if they'll call one bet on 4th, they'll usually stick around for a few more on 4th and 5th.

i guess it depends on the game. you might very well be right. the extra bets made from the paired tens could compensate for the folders. the only problem is that in hindsight it is easy to say that you can get into a raising war. but at least where i play when you raise a paired door card it gets a lot of respect. so i guess it depends (doesnt it always!)


Pat

Well, this is not the response that I thought I would get. I was interested in how the rest of the players here would play with the Aces full because I thought he overplayed his hand. I was actually the tens but the way I played my hand was less interesting, so I was curious about the oponions from the prespective of the Aces full.


I had four tens. Only one person mentioned this as a possibility and I don't understand that. I said that there were no maniacs in this game, yet everyone disregarded the fact that the 10 upcard capped the betting on third, paired his door card and checked. I think this is as obvious as it gets for Quads. Fifth street, I believe that the raise is riduculous. At the very least, the tens are full and there is a good possibility of quads. All you have is three Aces. The river cap is insane. I'm sorry, but it's absolutly insane. There is no way that I can re-raise with the sequence of betting with only 10's full. When I three bet the river, I have to have quads.


The aces full overplayed his hand. A basic principle of poker is not to get caught up in a hand just because you have a monster. Saying "I have aces full, I should raise as much as possible" doesn't make any sense in this situation.


I would have been scared as hell of quads if I was Aces full and I think that any good player should be.


Any responses welcome.

Peace

Goodie

i dont agree. you are playing results here if you think aces full should be scared of tens that paired their door card. if you dont lose a lot when you lose with aces full then you are not playing correctly. there is usually no reason to read someone for quads when trips is very likely to be the hand no matter how much betting there is. why couldnt the tens have a hand like TsJs/Tc. In a multiway pot it is worth it to raise and cap if all will call in many situations since you are better than 4-1 to win if no one is rolled up.


sorry to disagree but i dont think the aces overplayed the hand.


Pat

I didn't raise and cap, I limped and capped. Big difference. You also overlooked the fact that I checked fourth. With the up cards of the other players, it would screem quads.


Limp re-raise, nor raise, re-raise.


Peace.

Goodie

If you've got Quads and have good reason to believe your opponents also have strong hands they want to bet and raise with, then you should be bettting, raising, and re-raising with them. There's no reason to slowplay here.


You missed many bets by just calling on 4th, 5th, and 6th streets. Missing several bets in a 30+ big bet pot is just as costly as missing them in a 4-6 big bet pot.

If you slow down with a full house every time someone is betting with an open pair, you're going to throw away a lot of profit.


Assuming you've seen 13 cards as of 4th street, the odds of an opponent having quads are 740-to-1.


TRLS

Looking for monsters under the bed? If your afraid of quads with Aces full, your playing scared. There is a reason aces full beaten is a jackpot hand (if there are jack pots being played).

> but at least where i play when you raise a

> paired door card it gets a lot of respect. so i

> guess it depends (doesnt it always!)


Where I play the most, the Oaks Club in Emeryville, many players think "paired doorcard" means "you can bet a full bet on fourth street" but never give a moment's thought about what else it might happen to mean. This is especially true in the 2-4 games.

You wrote "Assume that this table of six players is somewhat better than most 2/4 players." In my experience, this is equivalent to saying, "Each of them notices their remaining opponents' upcards and occasionally speculates on what those opponents have in the hole to go with them."


Your actions might well scream "I've got quads," but in a 2-4 game, chances are good that no one else is listening.


The player whose hidden aces tripped up on fourth street was right to go to town against the paired doorcard. When an opponent pairs a doorcard and those two cards are completely live, that opponent is a 3:2 favorite to have two pair, assuming she started out with one pair. When my hidden pair of aces trips up against paired tens, I'm so confident that I have that player by the balls that I'm getting ready to eat Rocky Mountain oysters for dinner.


Quads happen, but most of the time they don't. I'm jamming with those aces.

Did the A's full thank you for those 4+ BB's you gave him ? if not I wouldnt ever play with that bozo again. every round should of been capped. ever wonder why you are still playing 2-4? If someone wants to go to town, next time, take them.


the only mistake the A's made was not bringing it in for the full amount.

I definetly should have raised more on Sixth street but the other streets I would have drove out the guy with Kings and Jacks and he wouldn't have been in on Sixth and Seventh therefore costing me eight big bets. Did you think of that?


Peace


Goodie

The specific results of this hand are irrelevent when deciding whether or not you played the hand optimally.


I could make an equally poor counter by saying "If you had knocked out the Kings and Jacks, the Aces-full hand may have gone to war by going more than 12 bets on 6th or 7th street." I know many players who would go to war with Aces-full since they can only be beat by an opponent holding specifically Quad Tens. I got 6-bet in a Bellagio 15-30 game by and opponent holing just 8's full.


Also, most players will not fold Kings & Jacks on 5th street, even for two bets cold. They underestimate how big an underdog they are to trip Tens in this spot.


I suspect you cost yourself many bets with your passive play.

Here's something strange that I just realized. There are 23-26 big bets in the pot after the 6th street action closes.


32 cards are unaccounted for if we assume "you" holds AA in the pocket and P3 holds a Jack in the pocket.


player 1 - xxQ5

you - (AA)5A85

P2 -(TT)101062

P3 - (Jx)KJ4J


Therefore, both "you" and P3 have a 31:1 chance to catch quads on the river.


However, their combined chances of outdrawing you are just 15:1- more than sufficient given the size of the pot. Therefore, it would be in your best interest if at least one of these opponents folded on 6th street.

Sorry, I guess I should have said this earlier. It was online so the prospect of Aces full going more than four bets was moot. Therefore keeping the KJ in the hand was of paramount importance.


I think I definetly played the hand too passive but that's not why I posted the hand. I just don't understand how anyone in thier right mind could justify putting in a raise on fifth street and capping the river with the hand the aces full had. What could I possibly be three betting the river with. 10's full. That would be ludicrous.


Think about the way the hand was played.


Peace


Goodie

What could I possibly be three betting the river with. 10's full. That would be ludicrous.




I would almost always 3-bet the river with 10's full and so would most other players. I would 3-bet the river with most full-houses.


Of course, if I have some reason to believe my opponent had bigger trips than me on an earlier street, I would slow down.


It is a very rare player where river "3-bet = Quads or better".

Your speaking in generalizations, not specifics to this hand. The way the betting went, I would have to be insane to three bet the river with only 10's full. Obvously in another situation, I would three bet the river with 10's full, but we're not discussing another situation.


In this situation, there is no way the aces full can four bet the river if he's a thinking player. NO WAY.


Peace


Goodie

At exactly what point does the guy with Aces-full have to put you on quad Tens? I just don't see it. I would suspect it, sure, but especially with another player in, I'd be raising at every turn for value.


You limped and then re-raised. This certainly could mean rolled-up tens, but I have seen people re-raise in this spot just to build a pot or because "it's going to get there anyway." This is $2/4. People do a lot of stupid things. I'm not saying you're stupid, or that you do stupid things, but your raise in this spot does not have to mean rolled-up tens.


On fourth street, the other guy who limp/re-raised has now caught an Ace. You could be checking your trip tens (or whatever) because you're afraid of trip Aces. Not raising on fourth street is certainly defensible, but you also missed raises on fifth and sixth. Personally, I would have started raising sooner. This is $2/4; people came to call; you might as well raise. I really think that you left money on the table. The only reason not to raise sooner is if this is a jackpot game. I think that the point at which I would put you on quad Tens is when you make it five bets on the river. With the cap in place, it never got to that point. I think that you are very much mistaken when you suggest that a thinking player has to put you on quad tens.


BTW, have you nothing better to do with your time than write posts about how badly your opponents play at $2/4? I've put in a lot of time at $2/4. I know how badly they play, and I think pretty much everyone else here does too.