Incredibly important SH/flop is HU question to all you open-raisers.

[Grisgra]

The only thing I hate about open-raising is that it seems to commit you to aggression on the flop and turn, and when you've missed a few flops in a row, it seems to cost you a lot more money than limping in and seeing if you hit TP would otherwise might.

Let's say I'm new to the 5/10 table. I open-raise from UTG +1 with QJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Instance 1) Button calls, others fold.
Instance 2) BB calls, others fold.

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

1) BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is
1a) 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. What do I do now?
1b) K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now?
1c) 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. What do I do now?

2) I bet, button calls. Turn is
2a) 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. What do I do now?
2b) K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now?
2c) 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now?

If they both just call by turn bet (I've been betting in all of these situations), do I check/fold river, or bet it out again if it's a blank?

FYI, if an Ace or 3rd spade hit on the TURN, I'm generally betting out, thinking it's more likely it's a scare card than they were waiting for it to hit (and then folding to any raise or resistance).

FYI II: It's nice I have an inside-straight draw and a backdoor flush possibility on the flop, but I probably bet out without it anyway. Obviously, by the turn those odds have gone to hell.

There are a lot of situations LIKE this where I don't have odds, or there's an ace on the flop, or I don't have overcards to two cards on the board (and so have extra outs against middle pairs), etc., but let's cover these instances first.

FYI III: I am seriously considering doing a little open-limping. At the moment I'll only do it with a tiny Axs on a really loose table, ditto small pockets. Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[kiddo]

This is a boring answer but I would say u have to bet flop and that turnbet is playerdependent.

As a rule I dont like check-calling, if I want to see river I "always" bet. I think I bet to little on turn but there are a lot of players that bet to much and you can make a lot from them calling them down with any pair.

I would always bet turn if any flopcard paired cause then its much bigger chance they are not hit by anything.

QJ is a marginal hand, no need to always bet turn, better to do it with A high. Bet both flop, turn and river with Q high is normally a misstake.

[Grisgra]

I just noticed I gave myself 4 more outs in 1c) and 2c) -- I'm probably betting the turn in both of those cases.

[joker122]

1) BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is
1a) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif What do I do now? Bet 10% of the time, check 90%
1b) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now? Bet at least half the time
1c) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now? same as 1a.

2) I bet, button calls. Turn is
2a) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif What do I do now?
2b) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now?
2c) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif What do I do now?

I'd bet each of these maybe 10% of the time (betting the king closer to 20%) but I'm inclined to check/fold this turn most of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
If they both just call by turn bet (I've been betting in all of these situations),

[/ QUOTE ]

Like 100% of the time? You're probably pounding too hard. They can only take so much pounding until they start to call down with next to nothing, and a hand like QJ has no showdown value.


[ QUOTE ]
FYI, if an Ace or 3rd spade hit on the TURN,

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An ace is like the almighty Card for these guys. They fold really fast when they see it. You should use it as a bluff card everytime you can.


[ QUOTE ]
FYI III: I am seriously considering doing a little open-limping. At the moment I'll only do it with a tiny Axs on a really loose table, ditto small pockets. Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't reccomend this...like at all. You're probably just running bad and missing some flops.

[I Play 2 Ski]

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Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather be this guy than "The GUY That Only Bets A Made Hand On the Flop"

So much of my decision making is player dependant that I cant answer the questions definatively. It all just depends. Although I don't take it to extremes I do believe that you have to give a little action to get it back.

[TwoNiner]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I hate about open-raising is that it seems to commit you to aggression on the flop and turn, and when you've missed a few flops in a row........

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to Twoniner's October!

I really don't have much to add except that this is the pain in the ass part of shorthanded play. I think you can limp with QJ suited every once in awhile if you've been raising alot recently, otherwise you're probably better off raising it. Like I said, this missing every flop possible is the same thing that's been happening to me. I've just started trying to limit my tables on focus on the players more so I can pick better spots to push or back off.

Good Luck.

[Grisgra]

Annoying thing is that I don't know if checking the turn so often in these cases is right . . . I think a lot of the time the Villain is calling the flop with a wuss under-pocket, bottom pair, or Ace-rag, hoping that he hits on the turn and ready to fold if he doesn't. And I can't know that until . . . I bet /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

And they DO fold to that second bet a half-decent amount of the time. I think. But not recently. Aaaargh. Well, thanks for the opin'. It's very easy to get recent-results-oriented with this. I wish there was an easy filter I could run through PT to get me the EV results I need.

I think maybe I need to have the discipline to keep specific records on this problem . . . it'll be annoying but it'd be super useful down the line. For the moment, I think I'm going to scale back to betting it maybe one-third to one-half of the time. (I probably don't bet it 100% at the moment . . . more like 75%.)

[Grisgra]

It's nice to say it's all player dependent, but this decision often comes up before you have any player read, and it'd be good to have a default. If he's ready to lay down bottom pair, I'll bet it. If I've been running well, showed down great hands recently, I'll bet it. If he's a known calling station and I know he calls down with bottom pair, I'll lay off immediately.

But 75%+ of the time, I don't know enough yet about the player to put him into one of those slots.

[I Play 2 Ski]

Understood. I'll err on the side of agression. I don't give people credit for anything until I have reason too.

[joker122]

Come to think of it, they only need to fold like 1 in 7 times for the bet to be profitable. The problem is they are just so damn loose. The other problem is is that you often will have only 4 outs (in your example) but sometimes 0 outs. Yet another problem, as I and others have mentioned, is that QJ has no showdown value. I know you're only concerned with trying to pick up the pot right there but having A high or even K high you should be more inclined to bet because you will be in a spot where the river goes check-check very often.

But I still admit, my 10-20% estimate was too low, and I probably do bet more often than that, even with a hand like QJ.

A huge factor is your image and what you've done thus far, how much semi bluffing you've done and how many times you've gotten caught. Another is of course your opponents.

[Benjamin]

This is a rough problem for me too when the flops aren't hitting. I do tend to fire away on the flop and the turn, but when I'm missing or when I'm hitting but others are hitting better it definitely opens me up to exploitation. If it's gotten to the point where people are calling my raises and then pouncing post-flop, I'll back off and check the flops/turns ... sometimes when I hit too if I can rely on someone betting for me.

It all turns around when you run good and people are either folding to your aggression, or you are hitting and get to pound them when you catch better. And if you've been on the same table for a while where you were running bad previously, then they will usually pay you off big time when you start catching.

B.

[spider]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI III: I am seriously considering doing a little open-limping. At the moment I'll only do it with a tiny Axs on a really loose table, ditto small pockets. Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, there was an El Diablo post about a month ago where he suggested open limping QJs, KTs, and JTs from UTG. Currently I'm experimenting with open-limping QJs & KTs from UTG but don't have much of a sample yet.

As far as this example, I really lean towards open-raising QJs from UTG+1, but it's not the worst hand to limp here.

[kiddo]

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I don't give people credit for anything until I have reason too.

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Nope, but U got nothing. If they got something u will lose (unless u hit river). That is not the tricky part.

Problem is what he will do if he also have nothing. That is not a problem of not "giving credit for anything until I have reason too" and therefore be aggressive. Its a problem of knowing how he plays with (almost) nothing.