Draws out of position....

[tolbiny]

Specific hand-

Hero is delt JTs in the sb in the early stages of a tourney (8-10 players left- first two rounds of blinds) ina party 10+1.

three limpers and the hero completes and the bb checks.

Flop comes Q,9,3r with one of hero's suit.
POA for the flop?

[tigerite]

Check, call only with the right odds to any bet, don't chase. If this had been KQs on a flop of JT3r then I would bet out, because your outs are much more defined, but here you really do only have the straight outs.

[luvrhino]

Since it's in an early stage of the tourney, i'm especially a wuss so i check and call only one bet (or smallish bet for NL). Later stages, i might bet this, but early on i'm mainly looking to not get eliminated.

[tigerite]

Not a wuss at all, this is sensible play. I'd do exactly the same. Obviously if there were only 1 or maybe 2 to see the pot, then taking a stab at it may be the correct option. But with so many limpers, one will surely have the Q..

Oh and if they don't, chances are it'll get checked around to you, and you get your card free - win-win, really /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[captZEEbo1]

never semi bluff from sb unless there are only like 3 people in the pot at maximum. A hand like KQ would reraise you here and you'll probably call, then you'll be forced to call a huge bet on the turn.

One other possibility is to bet 15 and hope nobody raises and everyone calls. Sometimes weaker players will just call with top pair when someone bets 15. Another thing with this hand, if there are 2 hearts on the flop, and you have JT of spades (for example), don't bother drawing this for even a 1/2 pot bet (without a bunch of callers), b/c you don't want to be drawing against a flush draw.

[stripsqueez]

with 8 clean outs and $75 in the pot i'm prepared to pay a bit to see another card - my implied odds in an early hand of a NL SNG are huge - any form of bluffing is out of the question - i would consider calling any bet, pot size or less

the first 20 minutes of a SNG are normally very dull for me - in a $200 NL SNG on empire tonight i saw 2 guys put there stacks in on the flop of hand 3 - J high held up to win - these guys are having all the fun

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[smoore]

It's strange to me that everyone that's responded has said check-call or check-fold. I bet this nearly every time and simply get away from it if I run into resistance. I figure I can make up the tiny amount of T$ that I'll be losing if someone raises me a lot and in the low buyin SnGs I play in, the TPTK guy simply calls most of the time trying to "trap" me.

Do the more experienced readers of this forum think I'm making bad moves here like this? It does fit with my image/style, lots of people call me "nocheck". I bet my draws like most people bet TPGK. I believe this is a good strategy *for me* because if ppl are paying attention I can get a free card by checking.

[Zaebos]

Why risk any of the your chips on a semi bluff when you know you will get called by TPTK or maybe a 9, hell even a 3 wouldn't surprise me on party 10+1. And I am not sure how much you bet but it seems to me that it takes a bit more then a tiny amount to get the 10+1ers to get off of anything.

[SixgunSam]

I don't see why it is so bad to bet at this flop. Check-calling seems weak and to me, but I guess a lot of it depends on the table. You're going to need 4:1 odds to make a check-call correct. If there had been an ace or a king on the board, I probably would check, but what hands are going to limp with a Q - not nearly as many. If you're going to bother with JT out of position, you got a pretty sweet flop for it, why not bet it or at least plan on check-raising?

[Drac]

So if you're betting this as first to act how much are you throwing out there? I would never do it but I'm curious what you feel the right bet size is here for your style of play.

[smoore]

I'm assuming this situation is first or second round of blinds. If the're agressive, I two or three bet it, if the're passive I one bet it. I may be thinking incorrectly here, but I'm trying to build the pot some so that if/when my draw does hit there's more money out there and I can make a bigger bet that has a good chance to get called.

[tolbiny]

Getting called by a 3 doesnt concern me at all. As long as his kicker isn't a J or a T i have 14.5 outs to the best hand, and a 3 isn't likely to bet the turn if i miss, so i can see the river against him for one fairly small bet, being nearly 50% to win by the river.

A nine is slightly different since his is much more likely to have a J or a T kicker, and also slightly more likely to bet if checked to him on a turn blank.

[tolbiny]

Hero is delt JTs in the sb in the early stages of a tourney (8-10 players left- first two rounds of blinds) ina party 10+1.

three limpers and the hero completes and the bb checks.

Flop comes Q,9,3r with one of hero's suit.


Hero bet T60 into a T150 pot, bb called all folded.
Turn 4r.
Hero checks, bb checks
river J
Hero...

[Victor]

check and call a pot sized bet. if you had less opponents (like 2, maybe 3) then lead out with a pot sized bet. As is, it is very likely someone got a piece of the pot and it is rare this bet will win here.

From here, the turn depends entirely on how much money went in on the flop and how many people stayed. Generally though, you do not want to face a large bet here on the turn so I might bet a 1/4 to 1/2 of the pot (giving you nearly the right odds) and fold to a large reraise.

Early in the tournament your stack is relatively deep so you can sacrifice small amounts to give your opponents the opportunity to make large mistakes.

edit: good to see you have migrated from the slum of the politics forum

[SixgunSam]

If I bet, it would be the same size as if I had a Q. If someone calls me, then I would check if I missed on the turn and be ready to give up the hand. If someone raised me, I would see if I am getting 4:1 odds, if not I would fold. Betting the flop gives you the chance to win it right there or increase the pot and disguise your hand if you do manage to catch the straight on the next street.

To tell the honest truth, I probably wouldn't limp with JT out of position (even in the SB) because it is a drawing hand and even if you hit a flop you could still be in trouble.

My question for those that say check, what are the benefits there? Usually the last player to act will fire a bet if someone before him doesn't. If you're not getting correct odds to call for one more card, you shouldn't, so you are giving up a hand that is a potentially great hand for you. If you bet you are either going to a) win it right there, b) get called and have a chance to win more if your straight comes on the turn, c) get re-raised and you will fold losing whatever your bet was. I could see check-raising as a legit tactic on the flop, but why is checking and hoping to get the right odds to call the correct play? No one has much money invested in this pot and will probably fold without a Q and there is a decent chance no one has it.

[Victor]

well, your opp appeared on a draw with his turn check. unfortunately his draw just got there if he has KJ or K10. Still, opponents at this stage are idiots and he may have a 9 or a 3 and you still beat the J8 gutshot draw. I would bet half the pot. It is unlikely he will reraise you with anything but a monster and he will call this bet with most pairs.

[SixgunSam]

I would have bet more on the flop. Maybe 100 or 120. You're not even betting 1/2 the pot there, which doesn't look like you are protecting a pair of queens. I don't think the guy who called you has a Q either. I say he is either drawing, has a 9, a PP or maybe an overcard. I would check the turn, then I would probably bet the river, but I could see the arguement for check-calling too. I would be more inclined to value bet my jacks here because I really don't think he has a Q. If he is a passive player, he might, but most players wouldn't call, then check with TP. If he is calling you down with a T8 or KT and made his straight, then he made a bad call on the flop and got lucky. I'm sure you would see a large re-raise if that is the case.

[tolbiny]

"To tell the honest truth, I probably wouldn't limp with JT out of position (even in the SB) because it is a drawing hand and even if you hit a flop you could still be in trouble."

Folding JTs in this situation shouldn't even be considered, I put in T15 which is roughly 1/55th of my stack with a solid hand where none of my opponents have shown aggression. If the BB raises here i most likely toss it.

[tolbiny]

All in all i screwed up Half of this hand-
Preflop this is an easy call-
Flop- Both betting and checking have some merits to them, i perfer betting, but i bet to small, i think a 1/2-2/3 pot sized bet is best here. I like making smaller thna pot sized bet in this situation because so many party players like to just click the raise button- and i didn't particularly want to be raised sig back. But my bet was less than 1/2 pot and it was to small. For me to bet here i have to think i will get a lot of callers with no raise, or for it to have some semibluff value. The bet i made was to big for the first and to small for the second.
I Also like betting because it can set up nice c/r situations when i hit my hand on the turn, as any straight card will often give a caller 2 pair.
By checking i invite someone to take a bolder stab at a pot which should be at least 35% mine, and i don't like that at this point, i think i can win a big pot with little risk often enough for bettig to be correct here.
Turn- i don't think anyone has a problem with a check here.
River- A value bet is clearly in order after the turn is checked through, a 1/2 pot bet is good IMO, would like other opinions on how much to bet the river in this situation.