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05-09-2002, 03:10 AM
Hello Again,


Same 5-10 game as I described below.


4h brings it in for $2

7s calls $2 ( FISHY FISHY MAN FROM POST BELOW. Basically plays every hand till the end )

9c raises to the $5 ( decent player )

5d re-raises to $10 ( A VERY TIGHT opponent )

(JcJs)9s ME...... I fold

No Higher cards than a 10 were left to act after me.


What would you have done?


Later,

CJ

05-09-2002, 07:58 AM
with a twoflush and a two straight you dont have to have the best hand to call the raise here. if everyone else will call and since the players are likely to call to the end if you make a hand you probably should call. i dont think it is a huge mistake to fold here.


by the way how are the games lately. i was at mohegan on saturday and the games sucked.


Pat

05-09-2002, 08:29 AM
Hi Pat,


As you can tell from my posts lately, I've only recently started playing alot (again) in the last week/week and a half so I might not be the best one to answer your question here. I had that month layoff due to my 'studio' project. But anywhoo the games I've been in have been pretty decent.( I did get a few table changes ) I do think the games are alot better at Foxwoods lately though. I think you regularly play 10-20 if I remember, if so on the weekend you probably want FW but if certain people are in the 'lineup' at Mohegan the games can be great. ( Thats the reason I jumped in that 10-20 game the other day ) 1-5 and 5-10 doesn't really matter, you can get good games at either place. (although I still have issues with 5-10) I have had some GREAT 1-5 games this week at both places. Believe it or not that's the game where you can make some serious loot.


Later,

CJ

05-09-2002, 09:08 AM
To me, the key to not folding here would have been the multiway action for a live pocket pair with a two-flush out. I'd see fourth street hoping to catch a jack and win a monster. If I don't catch my jack or a perfect two-flush card (like the 10s or As), I'm gone.

05-09-2002, 01:04 PM
So who won the hand, and with what?

05-09-2002, 01:24 PM
have have reduced drastically by the re-raise. U ready don't want to try for a two-outer on the J's.

However,if your opponent has a big pocket pair and he is capable of releasing it if U pair your doorcard with another "9",then it's more of a call. U then have more ways of winning the pot.

But he might have trips and I don't know if he is capable of folding a set of 5's even if he puts U on a set of 9's.

*******************************************

Because of the implied odds if U nab a "J",calling is not bad,but I think folding is best.

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I,personally,do not like to play "close call" situations.

However,in a high middle limit game,U would generally see two more cards--U would have more of a reason to continue to play(more dead money in the pot)

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In a higher middle limit game,U would re-raise the tight player,hopes he has a big buried pair and not trips. Although U would be an underdog,U would still be a "money favorite" in the long run .

The "dead money" in the pot would compensate for your underdog status.

Happy pokering,

Sitting Bull

05-09-2002, 01:31 PM
well Mike Caro suggests that the more hidden you strength is the more apt you should be to call.

However I would suggest the tight opponent had better than Jacks to reraise from mid position with a dink in the door. I would think A's or a set. I wonder how many straight cards to the 5 were out and also how many Diamonds were out. as these may be a factor in your determination as well as the number of spades that were gone and whether the 10, Q, or 8 of spades or unsuited were missing.


wombat6

05-09-2002, 01:36 PM
Oh yeah and what are the odds that this was a free card play ?


wombat6

05-09-2002, 03:10 PM
Wombat, I don't think he would be trying for a free card on 3rd. He would wait until 4th to raise in the hopes of getting a free card, I believe. If he makes a maneuver like this on 3rd, he isn't really getting a free card. He is paying the same amount for the card, just on 3rd instead of 4th. I'm still learnin', so correct me if I'm wrong.


-- Homer J.

05-09-2002, 08:46 PM
oops your right my bad....besides very tight players generally don’t use the free card play

or deceptive strength wagering very often . It goes against their very nature unless their

really a D-TAP or serial killer in disguise.


wombat6

05-09-2002, 09:08 PM
Change the 9s to something that isn't suited and straighted to the jacks, and the hand goes way down in value. But the spades and straight cards are mostly still live, and the jacks are live, and your jacks are buried, and you could well have the boss hand at the moment. Sure, there are some players you know won't make it $10 without at least QQ here, and against them you should fold, but otherwise I think this is WAY too good a hand to be giving up this easily in 5-10. In the modern game, too many players would be raising to $10 here with (A5)5 or three diamonds to an ace, and the completion to $5 often doesn't mean much at all.


Still, you're in a delicate situation here, and I think the right play, especially in a 4-bet game, is to CALL. This leaves room for two more raises (assuming the completion doesn't count as a raise), and if it goes reraise-reraise behind you, NOW you have an easy fold. But if the opponents don't make any more noise, or if only one of them does, you have learned quite a bit about their hands and should be in much better shape to know what to do on 4th and 5th. If you make it $15, however, there's room for only one more raise and you will often get a "what the hell" cap out of someone that doesn't tell you anything - plus you're forced to call it because of the pot odds. Sometimes you have to let them bet their hands instead of doing it for them and I think this is one of those cases.


TRLS

05-09-2002, 11:43 PM
Hello Again Everybody,


I thought this post might spark some debate. Seems like we had some conflicting analysis.


Here's why I folded. I had no doubt.. period I was beaten(perhaps badly) by the very tight persons re-raise. Even with my straight flush sidecard, I didn't want to call a double-sized bet.


By the way a poster who responded ( forgot who at the moment ) asked if that 10 to act after me was the 10s. It was. He also CALLED the double bet after me(only person to call after me ). One of the reasons I posted this hand is cause on 4th he popped a Jack(which would have been mine)


First raiser had pocket QQ and very tight opponent had pocket AA. 10s who called after me folded on 6th. Both AA and QQ made two pair so very tight opponent won the pot.


Later,


CJ

05-10-2002, 04:25 AM
a fact that the tight player has a big buried pair like Q's,K's or A's,would U call or fold for the double bet??

Just wondering.

Hmmm Sitting Bull

05-10-2002, 04:30 AM
U reduces your odds too much to even consider drawing possibilities.

The field also has been reduced, rendering it incorrectly to play any drawing hands.

Sitting Bull

05-10-2002, 07:00 AM
Sounds like your smart play was dictated primarily by your knowledge of your opponents more than anything to do with the liveness/deadness of your hand. I've always hated Jacks anyway.

05-10-2002, 05:36 PM
But does it? are you factoring in implied odds, pot odds, correct card probability, your

ability to manipulate your opponent(s), game texture, your image, his willingness to semi

bluff early etc. etc. ad infinitum?


Did you mean to imply that the universal law of poker (it depends) doesn’t apply here? Given the information stated I stick to my previous assertion that “ I would suggest the tight opponent had better than Jacks to reraise from mid position with a dink in the door. I would tend to give him credit for A's or a set” which was meant to imply that I believe to fold the wired J's with a partly dead suited one gap door card is the correct play. And again, it depends.


wombat6

05-11-2002, 02:14 PM
not factor in the variables that U stated--Just factored in my "gut feeling" based upon over 12000 hours of play.

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Happy pokering,

Sitting Bull

Ps I would be mentally exhausted in less than one hour if I were to analyize several of the variables involved.

I now require rest--I'm already tired from reading all the variables that U posted. LOL!

05-11-2002, 05:59 PM
Its kinda like eating an elephant Its easy if you eat it one bite at a time and of course you really like elephant.


wombat6

05-11-2002, 06:04 PM
righteo lin,


your relative position is another thing to be factored in as well as how likely you are to be

in favorable position on 5th and throughout the remainder of the hand.


thanks for reminding me of the very important concept . I owe you one loose call.


wombat6

05-13-2002, 02:04 AM