How Would You (or would you)Play It?

Ok here's $15-$30 hand a friend of mine played and we later had a lively debate over it.


An old man, relatively unknown, limped in with a Jack. My friend is next holding split Tens with a suited Queen kicker. Immediately behind him lies another Queen. The rest of the board is a smattering of low and middle cards.


Question #1: Do you play the split Tens, and if so, do you call or raise?


Well, my friend raised. The Queen called, and all folded to the Jack, who also called. On 4th street everyone caught a nothing-looking card. The Queen checked, the Jack looked quite confused but finally bet, my friend called, and the Queen folded, so it became heads-up.


On fifth Street, the Jack caught a running five to give him a board of J, 5, 5. My friend caught a nothing card. The J, 5, 5 bet.


Question #2: do you call here?


My friend called. Now the Jack caught a nothing card, and my friend paired his doorcard, which gave him trip Tens. He bet out, and was raised by the J, 5, 5, and he called the raise. On the river he failed to improve, and called the final bet, and the old man showed him Fives full of Jacks.


Question #3: Do you call the River here?

I definitely play the split Tens and I raise with them. It's unfortunate that your overcard kicker is somewhat dead but I don't think that makes the hand unplayable. Having a straight flush kicker adds quite a bit of value to your hand.


The old man with the Jack doorcard seems to have been concerned about the overcard Queen behind him. He must have put your friend on at least split Tens yet he bet into him anyway. I think you must seriously consider that he indeed has a pair of Jacks here. Your friend should consider raising on 4th street to guarantee that the Queen on his left folds. Then, if he's checked to on a later street, he has the option of taking a free card if he thinks he's behind.


On 5th street, you're probably done with the hand unless you've picked up a flush draw or improved in some other way.


The 6th street Ten will normally give you the best hand and you should go to the showdown.

a "fix' on the old man? In other words,was he tight or loose?

Once your friend raised on 3rd with his T showing,he is usually announcing his hand unless he has a big buried pair like A's or K's.

Since the old man saw your friend's T and he still bet into him on 4th,your friend should have folded his hand.

The old man had at least J's.

Your friend did not have enough heads-up equity in his hand to continue playing against the J's.


Happy pokering,

Sitting Bull

1. if you anticipate others to call your raise you should probably fold. but if you do play you should raise.


2. it is a questionable call here. your friend raised on third and now gets bet into by a probable two pair at least, and all he has is a Q kicker. it really depends on the old man. there is the small possibility that he filled here.


3.once your friend pairs his door card and gets raised there is little doubt that the opponent is full. but if he is full of fives and not jacks your friend can win if he fills. but he should not call the river.


pat

I would of assumed my opponent had two pair on

5th and folded to his bet. With $121 in the pot:


QcTsTc7h3d-$0.40

8sJhJd5c5s-$1.60


I am a 4-1 dog in a pot that is offering only

2-1 ($181-$90) effective odds.


If my cards are alive with a pair that "overcoats"

his two pair, I call to the river.


QcKsKc7h3d-$0.82

8sJhJd5c5s-$1.18

1.4-1 dog with same effective odds.


Thes results are according to Turbo Stud with a

custom no-bet/no-fold profile.

I pretty much agree with everyone who said that 5th street is a good place to release this hand.


However I am inclined to fold it on 3rd street as well...I don't like a Jack limping in ahead of my Tens, and in my experience unknown old men may very easily be limping in with Jacks. Compounding the difficulties is the presence of my duplicated Queen kicker just behind...and what if the Queen re-raises? Also there is the unknown factor of all the hands yet to act who just might hold a higher pocket pair or better. So I'm definitely not at all thrilled with the hand even though it has a 2-card straight flush start. I feel like there is a good chance I am already beat by the limper, and could be beat and get raised from behind as well. My feeling is to fold it but I could be wrong. My friend said he was absolutely convinced that it must be played.

If you aren't willing to play and raise with split Tens, then you are playing too few hands.


I agree that having your Queen kicker duplicated on the board lowers the value of your hand but certainly not enough to make the hand unplayable.


BTW, if the Jack had raised, I would easily be able to fold this hand. However, since he limped, you have to seriously consider that all he has is a 3-flush or 3-straight (which means you're both playing with very dead pair cards).

If a good player had limped in front I would think it pretty likely he had a 3 straight or 3 flush. However an old man limping in...in my experience, lots of old folks limp with medium and even high pairs. If this be the case, I think the Tens are in pretty bad shape, especially with many players yet to act; whereas if the Jack has a 3 straight or flush start, the Tens are probably only in reasonable shape.


I wish the guy who knows everything there is to know about Stud and Hold'em (and has for quite some time) would step in and render his opinion.

Well I dont like the 3rd street completion because by raising here you put 2 over cards

behind you and I dont like that so I just limp along. Although you probably did right by

taking out the trash. On 4th when I brick (unless its a gold brick) if the Q bets the J

really is either raise or fold. If he raise I fold. if He (J) fold, I have a decision to make and rely on knowledge of opponent. If he calls and I get no negative information Im glad

for the pot odds and end it with a oc (this OC is image dependent).


However when the Q checks and the J bets into you (the raiser) this is a reversal and you got to strongly consider he's got up's or better to make it a small bet from the middle with a 3rd St. raiser and a over card (potential check raiser) behind him. so if bet into here I fold.


If of course, you limped on 3rd and the trash fell away as it did the Q may bet on 4th. if he doesn’t and the J bets out you got to figure him for at least a over pair if not up's and you can ditch it. If he (the J) checks along (fearing a check raising Q )you can get a free look at 5 Th. street.


If of couse all this happens and the Q completes it on 3rd and the J CC's you are raise or fold because you dont have the outs to make a freezing overcall. Because one of your secondary keyzards (the suited J) may be dead. If the J raises 3rd or 4th you are crazy if you dont dump it.


I would of figured I was 3rd in a 3 man race and would get 4th or 5th on the cheap or dump it. For the most part a mid strength split pair with a dead 3rd best kicker aint much to run uphill against two overlords or maybe two over pair. Even if one is half dead and the other is limping.


wombat6


you said this was 15-30 ?

jeeze, I got to move up.