What Tells From Home Game Beginners?

[CardBlunt]

Hi,

I have a regular home game - strictly a social event, $10 limit hold'em with blinds of 10c/25c. I started the game to include my fiancee in my poker hobby, as I play online and at tournaments quite a bit and I didn't want her to feel excluded. Apart from myself, noone has any prior poker experience - they all still regularly refer to hand rankings during the games.

As you might guess, this makes the games something of a lottery - as noone has any real idea of good or bad hands, I never know where I am and as such have resorted to playing tighter than usual (these guys are serious calling stations!)

Now I am never going to get rich here, but I am wondering what advice anyone has against such inexperienced players - as it seems quite different than playing against even slightly better players. I figure there's something to be learned here. In particular, what tells have you spotted in total beginners that might be useful?

CB

[gojacketz]

You probably don't need to concentrate on tells at this game (though they will definitely exist), you need to learn patterns if you are playing the same players over and over. These guys are gonna play the same hands the same way until they know any better.

Don't tighten up in these games, loosen up a bit. Read the Small Stakes forum, sounds like it is just up the alley of this game. There is some great stuff in there.

Gojacketz

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably don't need to concentrate on tells at this game (though they will definitely exist), you need to learn patterns if you are playing the same players over and over. These guys are gonna play the same hands the same way until they know any better.

Don't tighten up in these games, loosen up a bit. Read the Small Stakes forum, sounds like it is just up the alley of this game. There is some great stuff in there.

Gojacketz

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice if you want to crush the game. But in the circumstances I'm not sure if that's what you want to do. In that situation I don't want to play bad poker, and I do want to charge the draws etc. But maybe I play a few hands that I wouldn't normally and do a little more gambooling than I would amongst strangers.

And I wouldn't table coach. If it comes up, if someone asks why you played a certain way I'd tell them, but no unsolicited advice (I struggle to live up to that at my home game).

[CardBlunt]

[ QUOTE ]
And I wouldn't table coach. If it comes up, if someone asks why you played a certain way I'd tell them, but no unsolicited advice (I struggle to live up to that at my home game).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah! Me too! Sometimes with these guys its hard to draw a line between explaining the rules and coaching though... Good advice nonetheless.

[warewulf]

As everyone will soon figure out, the only way to learn is to pay for lessons (losing). I've found some will win a few nights and get hooked. Some will figure out that they suck and stop playing. Generally people with out of control egos do not make good players because they can't fold. My ex-boss figured this out -- ex marine seargent etc. Just couldn't throw in a hand. Now he wont play. I think the trick is to keep things low limit so you don't burn people out. If people don't show up as often, stretch the games out -- bi-weekly instead of weekly.

As far as tells, I agree with previous posters -- better to concentrate on personalities. Some LOVE to bluff, others are tight as hell and wont be in w/o the nut. Other than that, the usual -- weak means strong, etc.

warewulf

[pukenpete]

Um, I'd follow what the other posters have said in terms of making general reads. Since this is a new game with new players, you don't want the perception that you're ultra-tight as this is a social gathering. One of the most basic things to do when playing life is just to watch ppl as they pick up their cards. You'd be amazed at the faces they make. When they bet or the cards fall on the table, again look at their eyes and pulses on the neck and forehead. Watch for shaking hands when the newbies bet. If you're really bored, check out Mike Caro's videos. Many of these things will not apply to your beginner game.

http://www.poker1.com/mcu/mculib_video.asp

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
As everyone will soon figure out, the only way to learn is to pay for lessons (losing).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's horrible and is so untrue. It is true the you can certainly learn lessons by paying for them, but that is the farthest from the correct way to learn lessons on the poker table. If you don't care, at all, about the money sitting in front of you; then by all means...

The best way to learn your lessons is through preparation. Read/study poker books, continue to paticipate in discussion here at 2+2, play freeroll home games with buddies for the sake of hand discussion and sharing of concepts and stratigies; just to name a few. You may have to pay for some tings in poker (everyone does at one time or another) but why not make it as cheap as possible? Why not sit down at that home gamed as a well educated poker player? Because you don't want to tear up the game? Forget that. You buddies will not care if you win all the time if their only playing for fun. Keep the stakes reasonably low and they'll play every week.

[deacsoft]

There are surely some basic tells you can watch for...

Big hand can sometimes mean:
A) player will shake from adrenaline
B) player will sit back in chair
C) player will look away form the table (unintrested in the action)

Another very basic tell that is common in beginners is when other players are ready to act before the action is to them. Such as:
A) will have chips ready to bet/call/raise before it is their turn
B) will have cards ready for folding before the action get there
C) will glance at their chips right after looking at their hole cards, indicating their intentions to play thier hand

(These are all useful when dealing with multi-way pot and implied odds situations.)

Stick to the basic tells and pay close attention to their play style of play (as the others have suggested).

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
C) will glance at their chips right after looking at their hole cards, indicating their intentions to play thier hand

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is GREAT. I see a lot of people that are otherwise very hard to read in the casinos all the time that do this tell EVERY SINGLE TIME they are going to bet a hand.

[deacsoft]

I used to do it myself until a friend, who is a poker player and fellow 2+2er, pointed it out to me long ago.

[Ghazban]

I've gotten in the habit of doing it every hand so that it no longer reflects the strength on my holdings. Its such a natural thing for me to do when I see two good cards that I found it was easier to consciously remember to do it with garbage than to catch myself in time to stop it with good cards.

[nolanfan34]

Some good info in this thread already.

One thing I've noticed playing in the same types of games - if a beginning player makes a raise after the flop, in limit or NL, they have a big hand - period. They may bluff at a pot if they're the first one to bet, but if they raise with others already in, they have a monster most likely. When a calling station wakes up and starts raising, it's a big time tell that they have something.

Remember that as a reader of this forum, we forget that others aren't going to make moves like raising with a draw to get a free card, bluff-raising on a scary board, etc. Most beginning ABC players aren't raising without a good holding.

[Munga30]

The biggest mistake beginners make is calling too much, both when they should fold and when they should raise. Take advantage of this by loosening up on your value bets and cutting down your bluffing.

[Yawkey]

One of my favorite tells from beginners at home games is when they slam their bet down on the table indicating a bluff. If you are playing on hard table with clay chips you will not be able to miss this tell (usually its on a big pot and they are betting a good amount of chips).

And like Munga said, most new players are calling stations looking for any slim chance to catch a winner. So don't expect them to fold on an inside straight draw because you raised enough so they don't have sufficant pot odds (I have a friend that gets burned by this fact every week when they finally hit).

[CardBlunt]

Some great advice here everyone. Thanks.

[TN_POKER_MAN]

If they raise, they've got a good hand.

If they grab their chips & check, they've got a weak hand.

If they very quickly check, they're usually drawing to a hand and the card that just came did not help them.

[mrmookid]

I like to watch how long people stare at the flop. Often, when someone is looking at it for a long time they are trying to fit their hand into the flop (flush draw, straight, etc). Someone who quickly glances at the flop either has nothing or something really good.

[msb]

One I like is the guy that all of a sudden becomes impatient with the slow play. This is especially true in a social game where there is a lot of talking and the action is creeping. The guy with the big hand is suddenly directing the action, trying to get it going.

This only works with a guy that isn't normally impatient... but now wants the action to get to him so he can bet his big hand.

There are two main things I'm thinking when I play in a game like this: 1) Never bluff unless you are heads up and can put the other guy on a draw. 2) Value bet, value bet, value bet. You will win untold extra bets with your strong hands because nobody wants to fold until they see all the cards.

[bolgenmod]

Some great advice on this thread -- when players are pretty clueless, even as to whether a flush beats a straight, it's sometimes hard to "read" them. And sometimes a great read is wrong: I was betting hard with the nut flush draw into a passive player who I thought had little -- he was check calling me very slowly. The river completed my flush -- he checks again, I bet again, and he reluctantly called. "Alright, I'll give you my money -- you've got the flush," he sighed, as he turned over his cards, "and all I have is a full house." !! (Made on my river flush card, of course!) I certainly read him right -- he thought he was beat. But of course I was beat. This has actually happened about 6 times in the last year in the home game (twice to me!) where the player is sure he's beaten, calls anyway, and wins. If they can't read their cards, you can't read them.

BTW one "tell" that I've found to be almost 100% reliable is when the flop comes all of one suit. Half the table will then check their hole cards to see if they have a card of that suit. Someone who doesn't do so and bets almost always has the flush -- they remember suited cards better. (Of course, the bettor could be bluffing...)

[Hedge Henderson]

Regarding tells, if you're playing NL, there's also the stare-down. In our weekly game, we've got at least two new players who'll try the stare-down when they're bluffing. It's almost comical sometimes.

A few weeks ago, one of these guys pushed on a very coordinated 9-high board against one of our old-time regulars who hadn't played with us for a while. The new kid then began his very intense stare-down. The regular, who'd never played with this kid before, thought a bit, then called. The new kid showed KJo, the regular showed AJs to take the pot. A couple of us damn near busted out laughing on that one.

With inexperienced players, there's really not much to think about as far as tells go. Strong means weak, and weak means strong.

[varoadstter]

In general, I agree with others - you can run over them without too much effort. But you asked for tells, so here are some:

Overbetting a made hand: if they have a big pair in HE, sometimes they will just go all-in immediately. You can safely fold here. Although sometimes a real beginner will do it with any pair. If you have TT or better you can consider a call against a beginner.

Rechecking hand frequently - again thinking HE game - they are on a draw or the flop is low cards so they check their hand to see what their "other" card is (to go with that ace or king they are holding)

Playing out of turn - this is not so much a tell but I'd assume that the guy who says "I raise!" out of turn definitely has the goods. Sometimes they will try to fold when they can check. That's also good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

There are plenty more, but these you will see over and over again.

[cyorg]

sometimes people will sit up a little straighter if the hand is good, or if the cards are really nice they may just start dancing.

[smoore]

When you posted this I figured I'd give it a few games and see what I came up with as the big ones in my groups.

1) Glance at chips = going to bet or raise, use this to checkraise.

2) Do they remember thier cards?
a) Usually checks cards, but not this time = Big pair, flopped set, TPTK w/ flush draw, etc.
b) Rarely checks cards, but is now = Mid to low grade hands. Action finds the occasional monster.

3) Body language beyond the felt:
a) Lean forward, stare intently = I want you to fold.
b) Lean back, look away = I want you to call.

These apply to the WPT wannabe style players I'm awash with. Some of my home game players reverse #3 and are just as easy to read; figure out who does which. As they get tougher and/or sneakier, they may reverse #2 on you. They'll still call with crap to the river, god bless 'em!

ChipSpewing(tm) at a $10 buyin... mmmmmmmm, cheap.