Single Table, winner take all question

[soxfan70]

Single table winner take all at Foxwoods last night. I have around 900 left out of a beginning stack of 1500, blinds are 50/100 and I'm in the BB. Folded around to an agreesive player two off the button who has been raising every time he's first in. He's raised EVERY time I'm in the BB when it was folded to him. This time he just calls. Folded back to me and my Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check. Mistake? Flop comes J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check again. Mistake #2? Oppenent bets out $400 into a $250 pot. Seems to me he's more scared of the K's than I am, so i throw my last $900 in, looking for a fold, but not devastated with a call. Mistake #3? I'll post results later, but I'm looking for critique on all three plays. Thanks.

[Klak]

thats not terrible. you have an open ended straight draw and he might not call if you go all in. id say you were 50-50 to win this with fold equity included.

[NotMitch]

I would expect to see AA a lot here, his play just screams it. I would fold.


edit: typo

[PrayingMantis]

I don't like your flop line here. PF it's fine, as the very-aggressive player might be trapping here with something. On the flop, he bets $400 into a $250 pot - an over-bet that might very well indicate he's afraid of the K's. Now the pot is $650, and you are pushing for $800 (assuming you had $900 before posting). Aggressive player has to call only $400 more, into a $1450 pot. You have rather little folding equity in this spot, your line doesn't necessarily indicates trips, and you are drawing for 8 outs (and if he was trapping with aces PF, you have only 4 outs, of course). IMO, it's a bad spot to put your money in, with a stack of 8BB, which is not desperate yet.

[jayrutz2]

I fold preflop!

[soxfan70]

Re-read! In the BB, no raise.

[tigerite]

Bet $125 into the pot. If re-raised, fold. If he has a K he may be tempted to just call this bet, as he will reckon he has you beat. With an overpair (Aces) or underpair, he also may call thinking he is beaten or just unable to get any read on you. This way you have a better chance to see the turn card, and to know where you stand, and you won't cripple yourself. Just my take on it.

[tigerite]

The problem is your check has basically told him you have no K. If you did have a K, you would bet at least something just in case he has AQ, you can't give a free card away in a situation like this. So if he now has any pair or possibly even A high he knows he has you beaten. However a bet of 125.. well how does he read it? You could have a K, you could be on a draw, you could have paired the J, basically, he just can't tell. You've got the initiative, and made him make the decision - a key point in poker. Not only that but if he really does have a hand, he'll come back over the top of you, and you can bin it, without having really risked much.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is your check has basically told him you have no K

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think I check a K a lot (like 100% of the time) if I'm the BB.

[tigerite]

If the board was, let's say, K K 3 rainbow then I'd agree with you. But in this case it is connected for a hand he may have, such as AQ, and giving free cards is death in NL. In this case I certainly wouldn't check with a K in the BB, it's just too risky, okay only 4 outs can beat me but if one comes I am toast, and just wasted my chance to win the pot.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
If the board was, let's say, K K 3 rainbow then I'd agree with you. But in this case it is connected for a hand he may have, such as AQ, and giving free cards is death in NL. In this case I certainly wouldn't check with a K in the BB, it's just too risky, okay only 4 outs can beat me but if one comes I am toast, and just wasted my chance to win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a deep stack situation, you are not as concerned about free cards and losing your stack. You have 9x the BB, you have flopped a huge hand heads up and this is winner take all which makes doubling up more important. Winning the only the 250 in the pot is horrible. If I have a K here my only conern is how get the money in. Being worried about a draw that someone may not have in the spot is very weak.


Edit: PS there are times to bet this but it would be in hopes of getting him to raise and not to protect my hand vs a draw.

[tigerite]

I can see where you are coming from, however I'm a firm believer that you have to give action to get action. Unless he's a complete muppet, when you check he is unlikely to push without a K, but if you bet I believe he's more likely to. If you do win the pot uncontested then it is a bit of a shame, but winning small pots isn't terrible, even at this stage. It'll give you some breathing space to get a better hand after all. Key for me though is if you check and he checks, then if the turn is a blank you're still not guaranteed action. So you may end up only winning what's in the pot anyway, and with (albeit only a slight) extra risk.

[tolbiny]

I agree here, he is giving you a ton of information when he only calls preflop. I would expect to see a Big PP or AK here most of the time, and with his flop be i think that AA or QQ are the most likely holdings.
Now what do we do with this info? my guess is fold, with deeper stacks i might occasionally go for the semi-bluff, but not here.

[soxfan70]

I actually thought I played this well at the time. My only issue with my play is the lack of folding equity I had. The all-in raise only required him to put in $400 more, which he did. I read his flop bet correctly, and he flipped over J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. An odd pre-flop call for this guy I thought, and I guess an obligatory call for only $400 more. I'm thinking now the key to this hand was my lack of folding equity, NOT the lack of a King. Any thoughts on if my folding equity is increased by an inital push pre-flop instead of the check-raise?

PS: I hit the A on the river!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Klak]

your fold equity would be better if you just pushed on the flop. if you had more chips, however, a check-raise would be the best way to represent the K imo.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see where you are coming from, however I'm a firm believer that you have to give action to get action. Unless he's a complete muppet, when you check he is unlikely to push without a K, but if you bet I believe he's more likely to. If you do win the pot uncontested then it is a bit of a shame, but winning small pots isn't terrible, even at this stage. It'll give you some breathing space to get a better hand after all. Key for me though is if you check and he checks, then if the turn is a blank you're still not guaranteed action. So you may end up only winning what's in the pot anyway, and with (albeit only a slight) extra risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was the button heads up against the BB in an unraised pot with a KKJ flop I really think that the range of hands I would bet if checked to is a lot larger than the range of hands I call a bet with. And I think this is true for a lot of good agressive players. If you bet you flopped trips from the BB I fold a bunch of hands that you have crushed and a decent portion of range of hands I raise with on that flop have trips in bad shape (KJ, JJ, Kx etc). This is a simple FTOP situation.