Did I mess this one up or what?

Typical $3/6 stud. Lotsa money in the pot.


5th street:


I´ve been betting and raising all the way with 9s9c;As and catch an ace on 5th. I bet, and one opponent with 3 diamonds showing calls among one or two others.


6th street:


A blank for me (no flush or straight possible) and opponent gets his 4th diamond. I check, he bets, loose guy calls, I call.


7th street: I check without looking at my last card, opponent bets, loose guy folds, I fold, reasoning that it must be so obvious to four-flush opponent that I´m going to call due to the big pot that he can only (???) be betting for value. Did I outhink myself on this one or what? (Note: Opponent was grinning after I folded).

The description "typical 3/6 stud" is not specific enough, as the game varies from place to place. For example, DoctorK often plays in spread limit games where an opponent calling the maximum means they have something, whereas I often play in games with multiple people calling the maximum with hands as weak as 5-6-8.


Anyway, I think you almost have to call this river here. Depending on live cards, etc., a lot of times you will not be getting pot odds to call with your hand on 6th, although if there were lots of chips in the pot, you probably were.


You have to call because some- maybe, most- opponents automatically bet with four flush cards showing on 6th, no matter how many people or the caliber of players left in the pot. Although it is unlikely your opponent is bluffing into aces showing after you have shown strength the whole way, a crying call with two pair is often in order in a big pot against someone with a four flush/straight showing. If he misses, the only way he can take down this big pot is by bluffing, and he obviously made the right play if he indeed have junk.


If your opponent is easily readable, and would not bet without the flush, you have an easy fold. But I gather this was not the case. His bet is much better, IMO, if you are in between the loose player, so he puts pressure on you to fold and maybe drops the loose player on a busted draw/one pair. You are right that it seems like he should expect to you call, but your opponent simply may not be good enough to think like this. Or, he may be thinking, "Well, FishyWhale is a good player, he knows I expect him to call, so I will bet, he will think I must have it, and he is good enough to fold."


As an aside, depending on the number of players in the pot, I am not sure of the wisdom of pumping a pair of nines, even with an ace kicker. The suited ace probably made it correct, but perhaps others can shed light on this. You definitely have to make sure your cards are live.


Good luck.


Mike

A good rule of thumb in stud is don't fold a good hand on the river unless you KNOW FOR A FACT that you are beaten, or unless the pot is tiny.


It's a small (Theory of Poker) mistake to call for one more bet when the pot is this big, but it's a really huge mistake to fold a losing hand here.


There are probably at least 10 bigs bets in the pot at this point, so your call has to win only 1 time in 11 to break even, and not even that often if the pot is larger.


TRLS

that U have the losing hand unless U see that your opponent's board has U beat.

Sitting Bull

cards were already out when he made the final bet .

U were keeping track of the No. of diamonds out,weren't U??

If there were fewer than 4 of his suited cards out,fold your hand;if more than 3 were out,call.

Happy Pokering,

Sitting Bull

keep inmind that your hand is not really strong on third street in a multiway pot. at low limit you can easily lose a lot more than you win in the long run with this hand. that said you do not give us any info on the player. against most players you should probably call since there are lots of bluffers at these limits. plus he does not have to be betting with a flush.


pat

yes but lin is right for that exact reason. it will only cost you a fraction of a bet if you are wrong in the long run, but if he bluffs even occasionally you have to call in a pot this size. that is one of the problems in stud as compared to holdem and those who play holdem will confirm this i am sure, that you have to call more on the river in stud because you dont see the last card. since you can never know for sure if a player has made a flush, for example, if the pot is large and he will bluff occasionally then you should almost always call.


Pat

By "know for sure", I'm including cases where you know your opponent's betting habits well enough to be certain that you are a loser - e.g., some opponents just don't bet or raise on the river without at least a straight.


I'm also including situations where you can safely infer that you have lost, e.g. you have two pair, someone else checks an open pair of aces, and a rag board bets - this has to be trips or better, but even if there's a small chance it's a bluff, this is canceled out by the larger chance that the aces also have you beat, and you should fold unless both of your opponents are complete idiots.


TRLS

Also, I said it was a "rule of thumb", i.e., a general guideline, not an inviolable commandment.


TRLS

that folding here was a big mistake, caused by fancy play syndrome and inexperience at stud. But I will learn. Promise.