News: Mirage changes structure of 5-10 game

I played some 5-10 stud at the Mirage today while waiting on a loooooong list for the 10-20 game. I was surprised to learn that the Mirage has changed the structure of their 5-10 game.


The new 5-10 game has a $0.50 ante and a $2 bring-in. Previously, the game had only a $1 bring-in. This small change has created a strange situation in which the 5-10 pots will be relatively bigger than the 10-20 pots on 3rd street.


Let me explain in detail.


The 5-10 game, with a $0.50 ante and $2 bring-in, will have $6 of forced bets in the pot on third street in an 8-handed game. That $6 is 60% of a big bet in this game.


The 10-20 game, with a $1 ante and $3 bring-in, will have $11 of forced bets in the pot on third street in an 8-handed game. That $11 is only 55% of a big bet in this game.


It seems very strange to me that the structure of a lower limit stud game would dictate looser play than that of a higher limit in the same poker room.


Any thoughts?


And is anyone else aware of this kind of situation in another poker room?

Foxwoods also uses a $.50 ante and a $2 bring-in for its $5/10 game. The bring-in in most stud games is 1/3 (or perhaps 1/4) of the small bet, so the $2 bring-in is a little closer to the norm than $1 is. Since you asked, these are the structures of the stud games at Canterbury Park in Shakopee MN:


$2/4--$.50 ante, $1 bring-in

$3/6--$.50 ante, $1 bring-in

$4/8--$.50 ante, $2 bring-in

$6/12--$1 ante, $2 bring-in

$15/30--$2 ante, $5 bring-in

$20/40--$3 ante, $5 bring-in

$30/60--$5 ante, $10 bring-in


They have also had $10/20 and $8/16 at various times. Both had a $1 ante. The $8/16 had a $3 bring-in, and I'm not sure whether $10/20 had a $3 or $5 bring-in. In all of the games listed above, the bring-in is one chip. You will note that the smallest game has, proportionally, the biggest ante, and the ante in the other small games is proportionally about the same as it is in the biggest games. The large ante does cause the pots to get relatively large fairly quickly, so that they can take the maximum rake.

well lets take my cardroom


6/12 1 ante 2 bring in

8*1+2 = 10 -1 -3 (-1 extra jackpot drop at 30 or something) = 6 or 1 small bet.


15/30 2 ante 5 bring in

(time game) 8*2+5= 21, or 1.5 small bets.


so you see what i mean.


brad

Dynasty:


I'm curious as to why they changed. To draw more 5-10 players from other card rooms to (what should be) the looser action?


My home card room (Turning Stone) has no ante, $2 bring in on 5-10.


Doc.

The reason given was "to create more action".

Does that really create more action ? I would play less hands on 3. street when the bring in is $2. If it is close between limping and folding, I now would fold more.


Anders

I think the idea was to speed up the game, making it looser, while maximizing the rake by

getting the Ave. pot size up to that amount required to rip off the next dollar ( the mirage

5 10 is a structured rake rather than a percentage rake,) One might think that this change

would drive the learned TAP off to the 4-8 bellagio game and the rocks back down to

the 1-5 no ante game. However as these game are inhabited by the same group on a day in

day out basis I dont think it should make that much difference. If your typical player had

the faintest idea on how the structure and rake effects the profitability of a game this game

is effected this may be different. But because it is the only regular 5 10 7cs-hi game in

town and your typical 5 10 rock is little more than a mush melon I dont think it will

change a thing other than lowering the available over all profit in the game. (Although the

extra loose calls after 3rd made by those chasing pot may result in the opposite being the

rule rather than the exception)


I personally liked the structure the way it was because it made most players average play

(playing too many hands and calling with too many hands) less correct. But by changing

the structure the management in their ultimate wisdom has made these bad calls more

correct, thereby reducing the profit in the game. The player here is dealt a double whammy

because the average size pot is also driven up increasing the Ave. rake paid per player

hour. as a result I for one will be playing a lot less at the mirage 5 10 and more at the

bellagio 4-8. I wouldn’t be surprised if this change lasted until the masses brought in by

the series have either been busted or fled.


Changes in play should be made. You may want to be playing more hands on third street

with the new structure especially median drawing hands that may now be correct to call

with given the larger size of the starting pot and the larger number of players rightfully

limping or calling for a single small bet. However the play on purely speculative hands may

be tempered because of their additional initial cost . In addition one may find big pairs,

needing additional protection up front, and some what weakened over all. This may cause

the learned to attempt to reraise with big pairs more often for this protection. As a result

the pot size and the resultant rake amount is driven up to the delight of the casino

management. This is a example of the truism that the house seldom if ever does anything

that is truly good for the player. And that most if not all game changes are for the worse.

If you doubt this take a look around the BJ pit

Isn't the 5-10 game a tightly structured game even w/the new structure?


I know some people who hate 10/20 stud bc of the tight ante structure.


Actually the 'old' 5-10 made things even worse, in that there is very little money in the pot on third....


And there are alot of quirks in stud structures, one player noted you can raise to 6 in a 1-5 game while you can only make it 5 in a 5/10 game.


Also all the games 5/10 games in Mohegan Sun, Foxwoods, and Tag Mahal use this structure.

If the goal was to create more action, then the Mirage should have increased the ante. Even changing it from $0.50 to $0.75 gets an extra $2 in the pot while allowing players to still limp cheaply.


I don't expect the regular players to make any adjustments to their game.

I for one will be playing a lot less at the mirage 5 10 and more at the

bellagio 4-8.


I doubt a player can earn more in the 4-8 game. However, I have heard quite a few players say they prefer 4-8 over 5-10 because the 4-8 game has more action. I've never seen this myself but I've heard it too many times to dismiss it.

I doubt a player can earn more in the 4-8 game. However, I have heard quite a few players


say they prefer 4-8 over 5-10 because the 4-8 game has more action. I've never seen this


myself but I've heard it too many times to dismiss it.


Well your right about the bell48 being a loose game . It is true because the structure dictates it being looser also the $1 bring in cause you to get alot of limpers with purely speculative hands hoping to catch something on 4th. while the tightly structured 510mirage makes tighter play up front more correct than that same play in the 48bell.


However with the new structure, the 510 mirage you are exchanging those purely speculative hands (which may or may not be correct in limping for a multi way bring in) for low and median strength drawing hands which were not as correct in seeing the 4th and beyond as they are with the new structure. And these med strength drawing hands are going to get to beat many improved pair type hands more often and for more correct pot sizes.


You see its a case where a change in structure makes a bad play into a not so bad play and a not so bad play into a good play. So, in agreement with the fundamental theorem of poker, we can assume that the more correct the opponents play is the less our profit is.


from the first glance one may summise that, no you cannot make more in the 510 mirage than the 48 bell. But like it is with so much in poker,

it depends


wombat- a Australian marsupial somewhat resembling a small bear with a bad attitude