Where's Waldo? 7CS8 problem

I had a tough decision on 5th street in a $20-40 7CS8 game a little while ago. I dont remember all the cards and suits, but I'll cover the important parts.


xx/7 (bring in)

xx/x

AsJs/Jc (Me)

xx/8

xx/T

xx/9

xx/9 --Note

xx/x

My Jack was the highest upcard on board. My hole cards were suited and live. My kicker was an Ace. I raised. They all folded until the first 9 called. The next 9 folded. The bring-in called.


Fourth Street:

xx/7,8

AJ/Jc, 6

xx/9, 4

I bet, they both call.


Fifth Street:

xx/7, 8, T

AJ/J, 6, A

xx/9, 4, 9


The 9 paired his door card and checked. The 7,8,T bet. I stopped and thought: Where is Waldo number 9? I knew one 9 folded on third street. There is only one 9 left. I thought xx/7 might be 8,9/7 8,T and he is betting on the come, or it is 5,6/7,8 T and he is drawing near dead. And if he does have the 9, the other 9 doesn't have trips. The other 9 called my raise on 3rd street. Would he call a pair of Jacks with a pair of nines? So I raised my Aces and Jacks.

The pair of nines Re-raised! The 7,8 called. I stopped and thought. Does he have trip nines? Where the hell is Waldo?


What would you do?

Huh? How can 56/78T being drawing near dead in 7Stud/8 against two hi-only hands?


If the 3rd player called a raise on 3rd St. w/(x9)9 and a dead 9 out, he's the worst 7/8 player in history. His 'x' has to be an 'A', else he's got a big pair in the hole.


At this point I'd pop it again(you're either way ahead or way behind v/the 9's, but the bringin is practically freerolling unless he bricks twice), but you can see the problem of playing one way hands in 7/8.

This is a hard one!


The 7,8, 10 was the bring in and the 9, 4, 9 coming to life on 5th with a check re-raise! I would also consider pocket 10s triping up (but not that likely with a 10 out).


I would call and go into check/call mode until I hit one of my life aces or J and maybe even call the river with aces up.

The bring in raise thinks he's the only low and raised on the come.

The 7,8 was freerolling with a draw to the low which added to the problem. I meant his hand was drawing dead to a ten high straight if he did not have the 9. He was definitely betting on the come. But he was representing having a 9 for a scoop.


I put the 3rd player on a pocket pair, but when he reraised I was not sure. I figured even if he did have trip 9s, my As and Js were live and I could out draw him. The pot was big and getting bigger.

I could not check, the 9,4,9,x was first. He bet out on 6th. 7,8,T,x Raised! He was jamming me in the middle. He either had a low (I dont remember 6th st. cards) or did have his straight. But I felt he was still drawing because he was not a good player and was almost all in.


I reluctantly called. I dont remember now, if it got re-popped. I was too stressed and lost track of how many bets were in the pot.


Seventh Street:

9,4,9,x bet, we both called.


(Q,Q)/9,4,9,x/ Q (Filled up on the river!!!)


xx/7,8,T,x /x (Mucked, No Low!!!)


A,J /J,x,A,x/ T (Me, Boo Hoo!!!)


Waldo number 9 was not even in the picture! I was ahead the whole time and did not know it. He filled on the river and pulled down a $500 pot!


Does anyone think I should have folded earlier on 5th or 6th. If so, what is the rationale?

....*YOU* would've been doing all the raising and capping on 5th & 6th? Can (QQ)949x take the heat against (xx)Jx"A"x & (xx)87Tx, with a dead 9 out?


Note how I emphasized your ace on board. What does Ray Zee say in his book about when your opponent catches an ace in 7/8?


"[In stud hi/lo] you have to consider how your hand plays." - Russell Georgiev, Esq. -

I had a similar hand a few days ago. I played on and got burned. Waldo was where he belonged in the straight. The other hand had a pocket pair matching his other up card--a full house on 5 cards.

I fold here. At least under slow consideration on a bulletin board. We all know how much tougher it is at the table.

Consider, despite your 3rd st raise, nobody seems afraid of your A, even though it could be trip A's. If you have even Ax/J6A, 9's and somethings isn't ahead much, has few outs, and may be playing for half the pot. Maybe he has AA's and 9's, thus knowing you don't have trip A's and suspecting not even 2. But he still must fear the straight and has 1 or 0 outs depending on whether you really have the last ace (from his point of view).

xx/78T simply must own waldo. He knows there is only 1 unseen. He knows you both know it. If he doesn't have it, he will fear xx/949 already owns it. And his T is useless and his hand pretty trashy without it. Maybe he calls with a low draw, but betting out? No way.

I already saw the results. Rather amazing he played Q's and 9's so aggressively. Where do people play 20/40 like this? You must be taking a lot of their money; I hope you are gracious when they take some back with a lucky 7th card.

If *I* was doing all the raising on 5th and 6th, then we would have 3 semi-Bluffers in the pot. To give more player profile: xx/7,8 was slouching, discouraged and nearly busted out. My read on him was he was making desperation raises. He busted out on this hand and left the table. The other player was a local who had been grumbling about not winning a hand all night before we tangled in this hand. He was not going anywhere and would gladly call and reraise. I was aggressive where it was appropriate, 3rd, 4th , 5th St. Until common sense and card reading dictated otherwise. The times I have played this game at the Bike in L.A. it has oscillated between loose agressive and tight aggressive, but aggressive regardless.

If my raises do not manipulate my opponents to check or fold, and the situation is marginal, then why increase my bankroll volatility by over aggressive betting?

Fifth Street

P.54 paragraph 3:

"The high hands do well if the low hands have busted out by fifth street. This is the time to push high hands, since your opponent will have only two cards left to beat you."


Check-Raising on Fourth and Fifth Streets

p.48 paragraph 5:

"... Suppose you have two aces but also have low possibilities developing. If your check-raise knocks out another high hand, or if you can knock out a low hand and play against a weaker high hand, where you have a chance to make a low if he should outdraw you for high, you have accomplished a lot."

This is the 20-40 7CS/8 at the Bicycle Club in Los Angeles. The Commerce also has a 20-40 7CS/8. I live in San Diego and go to L.A. every month to play tournaments and live games that are not spread at home. The times I have been in these games they have been Aggressive and I have had very volatile swings in winnings/losings.


Part of the problem on my bad days was that I would play after being in a tournament. I would be mentally tired, it was late and I had an hour and a half drive home. But I did not want to leave because I won't be back for a while. So when I did stay, my play would get worse, my mistakes were dumber and I would lose. I won't do that anymore.

I ran some simulations:


3rd St. 7CS-8 low,

Win rates for 50000 hands:


AsJs/ Jc &nbsp &nbsp 29 %

QcQd/ 9s &nbsp &nbsp 28.5 %

5c6h/ 7d &nbsp &nbsp 42.5 %

The two pairs are in a dead heat. The low straight draw is the favorite.


Now change the last player to the possible straight for this "hand to talk about":

AsJs/ Jc &nbsp &nbsp 36.5 %

QcQd/ 9s &nbsp &nbsp 34 %

6h9c/ 7d &nbsp &nbsp 29.5 %

The big pairs are now the favorites, with the Ace kicker pulling out in front.


Fifth Street:


Now change the last player to a low draw with an open ended straight (with Waldo):

AsJs/ Jc,6d,Ah &nbsp &nbsp 63 %

QcQd/ 9s,4s,9h &nbsp &nbsp 13 %

2s9c/ 7d,8h,Td &nbsp &nbsp 24 %

Aces up are a clear favorite.


Now change the middle player to trips (with Waldo) and the other to a low draw:

AsJs/ Jc,6d,Ah &nbsp &nbsp 14.5 %

Qc9c/ 9s,4s,9h &nbsp &nbsp 57 %

2s5c/ 7d,8h,Td &nbsp &nbsp 28 %

Aces up are in a world of hurt.


On fifth street after I raised, got reraised, xx/78T called and it is one more big bet to me, I was getting 11 to 1 odds to call. I had 4 outs out of 36 unknown cards, which is 8 to 1 odds. However, if the low got there, the pot was only offering 5.5 to 1. My reason to continue was because if trip 9s did fill and I also filled, then my Jacks full or Aces full would still beat him.


Can any of the REAL experts out there give me some advice about what to do in this situation so that I can learn from it and do the right thing. I have been mulling this hand over in my mind for a month and still am not sure if what I did was positive or negative EV.


Thank you profusely,

KeithO