8-8 hand - I suck at tournaments

[lil']

OK, I'm very good at limit, but my tournament play leaves a lot to be desired, as I think this hand demonstrates.

I decided to try out a $50 2 table sit n' go at Party. Things are going well. There are 7 of us left and the top 4 get paid. I am in first by over 1500 with about 5500 chips. Blinds were $100 and $200

I am in the BB, and the CO-1 open raises to about 600 (he had about 3600 chips). The more astute players had been open raising to steal the blinds with anything decent, and I could be fairly certain he had some combination of face cards. I have 8-8 in the BB and it's folded to me.

I had no idea if I should push all in here or not. I had pushed all in several times before against this guy and forced him to fold earlier, and I had an aggressive image at the time. I figured this was very likely a coinflip here, and that I would be called due to my image. I decided to call and attack a flop with no ugly cards.

The flop comes 9-10-4 rainbow. It's probably safe. 1300 in the pot. I have about 4900 left, he has about 3000. I check, he overbets the pot with a 1500 bet, I push in and get called by K-Q. He rivers a gutshot and I lose.

2 questions...

1) Was my pre-flop thinking sound? Was pushing in a better move? I was fairly certain in my read that I was against two overcards, probably jacks or higher.
2) My flop play was really bad, right? By letting him bet a large chunk of his stack, I'm getting into a situation where I am going to be called. If I was going to push, I should have done it right away and not checked, right? Was continuing with this hand a mistake?

[lastchance]

If your read is good, go with it. You got him all-in when you were good. He had to call with his likely outs, but that's not a bad thing. It's perfectly fine to play this way when you know what you're opponent's hand is. Also fine just to push preflop.

[bsiu5]

i like the idea of calling the raise due to the fact u had a good read on your opponent and you were pushing previously in prior hands. here's what i don't get. Were u trying to trap him after the flop? U checked... since he has overcards, i think he pushed to buy the pot and since u went over the top he was already committed over 1/2 his stack. instead of checking the flop, if u went all in he would have had to make a tough call cause ur putting him in all-in and he still has 3000 chips left so he could fold since his overcards didn't catch.

[lil']

Were u trying to trap him after the flop? U checked... since he has overcards, i think he pushed to buy the pot and since u went over the top he was already committed over 1/2 his stack

Yeah, that was one of my questions. I think the correct play was to push all in on the flop before he was committed to calling.

Thanks.

[bmedwar]

how did you read that he only had two big cards? wouldn't he have played 99-AA the same way? Aren't you risking a lot of chips. I think you should have re-raised preflop (pot size plus 33%), then you would have a better idea where he stood. He would probably call (or possibly fold) with KQ, but he would have re-re-raised with AA, KK, or AK.

[Fat Nicky]

I am one to be aggressive in these situations. If you read the situation to be a coinflip, i'd gladly take my shot and put him all in. You have a chance to take down his bet + the blinds by making him fold or you can further improve your chip position by increasing your already large stack.

On the flop, you put him all in while you had the best of it, you lost, move on. However, I would have thrown in about a 2/3 size bet.

For me, the key to winning tournaments is winning those unavoidable coinflip situations.

[bmedwar]

[ QUOTE ]
If you read the situation to be a coinflip, i'd gladly take my shot and put him all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but my question is how do you read this to be a coin flip, out of all the hands he might play this way I'd guess that 20% of them are 99 - AA. That seems like too much of a risk to me.

[Fat Nicky]

While I do agree with your assessment the original post said "I was fairly certain in my read that I was against two overcards, probably jacks or higher." I based my response on this.

When a player raises, there is always that chance they could have a pair higher than yours. In your case you say a 20% chance of this. So, 80% of the time, you have a coinflip situation, 20% of the time you're a 4-1 dog, so you win the hand approx 42% of the time. Is this a chance that you take to put yourself in a commanding chip lead w/6 players left, I would usually take it.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
how did you read that he only had two big cards? wouldn't he have played 99-AA the same way? Aren't you risking a lot of chips. I think you should have re-raised preflop (pot size plus 33%), then you would have a better idea where he stood. He would probably call (or possibly fold) with KQ, but he would have re-re-raised with AA, KK, or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

reraising pf like you suggest would have put more than half his chips in. that's a lot to commit just for information. i think the pf play was decent, but on the flop he's in a pickle. i think on the flop he's either got to lead out with a pot-sized bet, or check-fold. this is a dangerous hand because he's out of position and his opponent has a lot of chips in the pot.

[TheDrone]

Pushing all in on the flop isn't a bad way to go, but it would be better to figure out where you stand before committing most of your stack. You can do it preflop with a reraise, or a good sized bet on the flop. In either case, if he reraises all-in I think a fold is warranted.

[bsiu5]

my original response to the post was due to the fact that he got a good read on overcards. my reasoning to reraise all-in on the flop was because i wouldn't want to have to go to a coinflip. the villain still had another 2800 or so after his preflop raise. so if u pushed him all-in on the flop since u were out of position. he would have to commit all of his stack on a gut shot or hope that his overcards catching could still beat out whatever cards u had. i could have easily folded KQ when they didnt' hit and the chip leader pushes my all-in.

[Jason Strasser]

lil',

I've seen you play limit and you are nasty.

But this play screams of a lack of planning.

First of all, you have a read on this player. If he's capable of folding to an all-in bet, then you are almost always better off putting an opponent to the test on the bubble.

88 is generally a crappy hand to call and see a flop with a "wait and see" approach, because there are so many flops that stink. Your opponent in this hand played the hand well, but you let him do that. If you planned to get all your chips in the middle on this flop--then you ought to bet it because your opponent has a shallow stack and will not be able to fold if he bets. You want this pot now. Even if you are ahead, how far ahead can you be?

No-limit puts a premium on a plan. Often in limit, you can get away with a wait and see approach, in no-limit you need to work things out ahead of time. I would've put my opponent all-in here preflop, especially if he was capable of folding. On the flop, chances are he isnt folding regardless of the action.

-Jason

[lil']

Thanks for the reply.

If I pushed all-in pre-flop, I was very sure I would have been called. As I said before, I was playing aggressively. It sounds like it is OK to get into a coinflip situation here? Against a smaller stack I would have just done it, but I knew if I lost I would lose over 3/5 of my stack.

Of course, there is always the chance he will fold pre-flop, I guess, making the pre-flop all-in bet better.