Stud/8: Multiway Hands in Early Position

So you're playing in the eight-or-better stud game you typically play, and you are dealt a hand like (5d 4c) 3d, with your diamond trey being the lowest on the board. There is one ace, of spades, to your immediate left, and the 4h and 7c are also out, along with a bunch of bricks.


Ray Zee's book calls this a multi-way hand, so you just bring it in for a limp. The ace raises, and the four and the seven trail in.


So you've got a great multiway starter in a multiway pot, so you're quite happy to play. The question is, do you just call the ace's raise, or reraise?


The answer is of course going to depend on a lot of things -- the overall texture of the game, the likelihood that the initial raiser will three-bet (and if so, the likelihood that the other players will call the double bet), your own opinion of the individual players involved, and so on.


I've been doing a lot of limp-reraising with good multiway hands -- limping in before it's clear how many people want to play and reraising when a raise comes along and it seems clear that other players are along for the ride. What I'm wondering is whether this is in fact a positive-EV move. Comments appreciated.

I am emphatically NOT an accomplished 7 stud/8 player, so please don't take my analysis too seriously. And please do shoot it down; maybe I'll learn something.


I do NOT raise for several reasons.


First, the ace is very powerful; he can make a swing hand with 2 pair, while I need a straight or a flush.


Second, I find the ace tactically very difficult; he may know which way I am going before I learn (if ever) which way he is going.


Third, I don't yet want to show strength to the other callers. The hands I make are generally winners so I don't want to scare them out.


Last, I think I will learn more next round if I simply call here than if I raise. I will probably play quietly on 4th st too, even if I catch a good card. Then I will be well positioned and well informed for a potential raise on 5th st if I still like the hand.

> I do NOT raise for several reasons.

>

> First, the ace is very powerful; he can make a

> swing hand with 2 pair, while I need a straight

> or a flush.


But three cards to a wheel with a two-flush is *also* a powerful hand. Not only do you have low straight and flush outs, but two small pair beats unimproved aces the last time I looked at the little extra card that came with my deck.


> Second, I find the ace tactically very

> difficult; he may know which way I am going

> before I learn (if ever) which way he is going.


Suppose the ace bricks up on fourth street and bets, while you catch the 7d. All of a sudden you know which way he's going -- and he just can't tell about you (except, if he's smart, he will be aware that you could very likely have some two-way monster draw).


If the ace catches *good* and *you* brick up, things are even simpler: fold and play the next hand.


> Third, I don't yet want to show strength to the

> other callers. The hands I make are generally

> winners so I don't want to scare them out.


The ace has *already* shown strength, and these people called. Either they are fools (and stud/8, happily, is a game that attracts fools) or they are playing hands that can take a reasonable quantity of heat.


My general attitude towards split-pot games is that slowplaying is in general a bad idea. Why give people the right odds to draw out on you for half or all of the pot?


Shows of strength are difficult to interpret in split-pot games, because it is often far from clear the precise nature of the strength you are showing.


> Last, I think I will learn more next round if I

> simply call here than if I raise. I will

> probably play quietly on 4th st too, even if I

> catch a good card. Then I will be well

> positioned and well informed for a potential

> raise on 5th st if I still like the hand.


And if you catch good when everyone else bricks up and checks to you? A bet here could conceivably take down the whole pot, especially if you've shown strength on third street. This is *much* more desirable than giving up a free card and letting someone else outdraw you for half the pot or more.


* * *


There are a number of starting hands that are fairly strong but play best multiway. You generally want to come in for cheap if you aren't sure whether other players are coming along for the ride, both to keep it cheap in case you wind up heads-up and to encourage others to trail in after you.


The essence of my question is this: If you have done so, a good multiway pot is started, and someone raises, *and* you are reasonably sure that if you reraise no one is going to drop out

(and the cards you need to catch are live, etc.), is putting that extra raise in a positive-EV move? Does it increase or decrease your equity in the pot?