$30/60 Stud/8--765 sooooted

$30/60 stud/8 with a $5 ante. A 3 brings it in for $30. This guy is something of a loose cannon and frequently raises on third street. Next guy calls showing a 7. I'm next and have (5s6s)7s. I think I read somewhere that this is a good starting hand in this game. I smooth call. One more call and then the next guy, a good hold'em player who overvalues high hands, makes it $60 to go showing the 8s. I'm pretty sure that about all he can have is pocket Aces or rolled-up 8s. A couple more people call. It's back to me with six people in. The 8s and 3s have shown, alas, but those are the only spades gone. One other 3 has shown, so my straight possibility isn't quite as strong as I'd like, especially if the one guy has rolled-up 8s. I re-raise. The 8 re-raises, and I cap it. Am I correct to be pushing this hand this hard on third street? I think that we were down to five players. On fourth street, I catch the 4c. The guy to my right showing A7 (I think) bets and I raise. The guy with the 8 has caught a face card, mulls it over, and calls. Four or five of us see fifth street for two bets each. On fifth, I catch a face card and call one bet. On sixth, I catch a second face card and call one bet. Three of us see the river. I catch a 3 to make my straight and a low. High board shows 7A47, not necessarily in that order, and checks. He was the bettor on fourth street, but hasn't been showing any aggression since then. I bet my hand, the guy with the 8 in the door raises, the other guy calls $120 cold. I just call fearing that I may be beaten both ways. Your comments please.

Notice how different this 3rd St situation is from the hand below. Your re-raise likely won't knock anyone out and 3 of your key cards are dead. If you were going to raise on 3rd, IMO you shoulda done it right away.


Good raise on 4th, good calls on 5th & 6th, bad bet on 7th. I hope you won the high half! /images/smile.gif

I bet you lost. When boards get scary, obvious rolled hands slow down until they fill up. But then again, some stud high players grossly overestimate high hands. I've seen action like this where the raiser will have aces up. BTW, are you AndyBeal on paradise?

your starting hand is almost as good as it gets. I would have raised right awat but your hand is also great multiway. You played the hand correctly and i would have reraised on the river since it is rather unlikely that you are beat both ways


BIGSTU

"If you were going to raise on 3rd, IMO you shoulda done it right away."


I strongly disagree. Three small straight-flush cards are a *wonderful* hand for this game, but the hand very much favors a multiway pot. I won't push it until and unless I'm sure that there are a few more players committed to the pot ... and then I push it hard. Limping and then reraising when there is a crowd along for the ride is exactly what I would do with it. I may wind up with only half a pot (I don't know yet which half) so I want the pot to be big. And if I scoop, I want the pot to be as big as possible.

I like the way you played this hand. The call on the river is mandatory. I don't like raising, because you may well be beat in two places, but you could also have the best high, the best low, or both. A hand with both a weak high and a weak low is generally worth a call in a spot like this, unless you're *sure* you're beat both ways, when both a weak high-only hand or a weak low-only hand should go straight into the muck.


My read: The guy who started with an 8 up has straight or flush cards down below (he hesitated and called when he bricked up on 4th street; rolled up or holding pocket aces, he should have raised). The guy showing 7A47 has at least two pair, so his best possible low is a 7, and he might not have a low at all, but three pair (aces, sevens and fours). I think your straight was good for high, but a straight seven was beat for low.


What happened once the dust settled?

maybe it's too soon after a big lunch, but I'm disagreeing with the other responses.


I suspect the 8 raising has a strong high (like to know what he caught on the way...) and 7A47 may have two pair to show or caught a crappy low (an 8?). I'd still only call tho' - just in case - and hope to at least get the low.


G

I do, sort of, see the wisdom of knocking people out right away. My low is pretty rough, and my high cards are slightly dead. It does seem, though, that more people are in my camp than yours. That doesn't make you wrong, of course. I guess my basic question was, and still is, is it correct to jam with this hand on third street? If my hand was 654s or 543s or 432s, I think the answer would be "yes" without question, and if my hand was 876s or KQJs, the answer would be "no," also without question. Let's say that I had made it $60 to go right away, and it was raised back to me with five or six people still in, am I correct to continue jamming in your opinion?


I am curious as to why you think the river bet is bad. I think I am quite likely to escape with at least half the pot and have a decent chance at a scoop. I think that plenty of worse hands will pay me off due to the size of the pot.


I'd like to thank the panel for your consideration. The guy with the 8 in the door was rolled-up and made a full house on the river. Why he didn't three-bet on fourth street is beyond me. He was clearly thinking about it. The pot is big enough, I think, that he should try to knock some people out. I think he ought to be able to put me on 7654 as a likely hand, and he knows that my straight chances are a lot worse than I think they are. The other guy also had a 76 low, so I got shut out. This guy was fairly passive, as far as $30/60 players go, but I think he would have bet a 7 low with me showing 74KJ and the other guy clearly going high. I feel better about this hand now than I did when I played it.


That was the first "super-premium" starting hand I had ever been dealt in this game. I got my second last night. We're five-handed. A guy that I've never played this game with, but who plays a good game of both high-only stud and Omaha/8 has a 3 showing and brings it in for the full $30. I'm next with (AA)A and raise to $60. The other cards showing are J, 10, 8. Everyone folds. I actually think I may have maximized my profits on that one. /images/smile.gif

I am not Andy Beal. My handle on Paradise is andy_b, and I'm strictly play money there. Wife won't let me have the credit cards.

I was once playing 4 handed 5-10 high-only at the Mirage, and had raised every hand on 3rd. I then get (KK)K, raise when the other two fold to me, then bet out as the bring in called me down the whole way when he paired up but did not make his flush.


Pity, as my river card was the case K. The game broke immediately after this hand... /images/smile.gif

The problem in this particular hand is that the 3s & 8s and another 3 were dead, weakening Andy's hand considerably.

Think of how differently(or not) you could've played your hand if you would've had the 5 or 6 up, instead of the 7, AND/OR, if the 3s & 8s had not been dead.


Ex. credit: Think of differences in playability btwn a (xx)7A47 hand v. a (65)74KJ hand(w/no apparent flush draws for either), under various betting actions/opponents left, etc; on each street.


Hint: Is position as important in stud games as it is in flop & draw games?


Comment from a $30-60 Hold'em pro on a seemingly unrelated matter: "The difference btwn a $15-30 pro and a $30-60 pro is that the $30 pro is always aware of what he's representing."

And this makes you *more* inclined to play the hand heads-up?

I wrote down the hand as you described it and found this:


On 3rd st. capped with 6 players the pot is $850. You are getting 5 to 1 for your bets. with two 3s and one or more 8s dead.

On 4th St. you are getting 28 to 1 for a call and 14 to 1 for a raise. Your outs: 7 spades, two 3s, one 8, for 10 outs. There are 16 known cards: 5 players on 4th st, 5 * 2 = 10, 2 dead 3rd st., your 4 cards = 16. 52-16 = 28 unknown cards. 28/10 outs = 2.8, your odds are 1.8 to one. The pot is paying you 14 to 1. You can go to the river.


I think the toughest decision was on 6th street. Hi/Lo is different from straight high on 6th. If you have 4 low and 2 bricks on sixth and nothing else, quite often it is correct to fold. But not this time. the pots too big.

I would have checked the river also, because of the strength of xx/8s all through the hand for high. And 7A47 stayed all the way and could have 7,4 low. (I put him on pairing the Ace on 4th).

The final pot was $1870 split = $935. It cost the three of you $450 each. Nice pot for the winners.


-KeithO

Not necessarily, although Andy couldn't get that hand headup anyway. I probably would've just called on 3rd, BUT, if the 3s & 8s were still out, I'd've likely played it just the way Andy did.


The problem with a lot of opponents going low in this particular situation is the lack of scary board potential Andy's hand has.

Well with other players showing low cards and the chance of rolled 8s, killing much of your high chances, I think you should never raise with this hand on 3rd. What are you going to do if you catch bad, and you cards fall even further dead?


Pumping a 2 way low draw even 234s is not a good move, apart from the very occasional play to give you more action when you are rolled up in future.