Party 15/30, 3 hands for review [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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fnord_too

10-25-2004, 12:48 PM

I'm new to the 15/30 full game, with most of my recent ring game experience coming in the 5/10 and 10/20 short handed games. Here are three hands I have questions on.

Hand 1: Value bet this river?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP3 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Hand 2: Was my line good for maximum value here?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, MP 3-bets, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, MP folds, SB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (12 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between SB and Hero.

Hand 3: Fire at this river?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds.

Flop: (11 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, BB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, BB calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero ???

DFish

10-25-2004, 02:45 PM

hand 1: a bet cant be right here i dont see a hand he could call and lose with
hand 2: seems good except for the flop smooth call, cap. that usually rings a bell that you have a big hand and it may have been better to just call the 3 bet hoping mp straggles in and u can start going crazy on the turn
hand 3: he is probably just as likely to have a pair below q as he is ak hard to know what to do here but it seems worth a shot.

Victor

10-25-2004, 03:25 PM

hand 1: I would bet here unless your opponent is a lag that has a tendency to raise/bluff raise the river. There are certainly a few hands that you beat here - K-9, J-9, J8.

hand 2: I hate your flop play. Calling a bet and then capping SCREAMS monster. I would just call here and then raise the turn. SB likes his hand enough to 3-bet the flop so you will proly get called down to showdown. And it gives you the chance to collect a few extra bets from MP.

Hand 3: Bet and hope he folds AK.

Nightwish

10-25-2004, 04:12 PM

Hand 1: This wouldn't be a value bet on the river. Check-call. Also, your flop check-raise is OK in this situation, but don't get carried away with that kind of stuff.

Hand 2: This is fine. I frequently just call the 3-bet on the flop with the intention of inducing SB to bet out again on the turn so that I can raise then, but your line is OK too.

Hand 3: I really hate the flop raise. Not only are you shutting out the players behind you when all you have is a draw (and you should be inducing as many of them as possible to call), but you're also just begging to be reraised by the BB. He turned out not to have a hand worth reraising with this time, but that just means you got lucky. The river is tricky because you played this hand like a LAG and built a big pot. You're almost forced to bet because your hand has no showdown value, but I really question whether BB will fold his AK.

Ian J

10-25-2004, 04:24 PM

Hand 1: Check the river.

Hand 2: Just call the 3 bet on the flop and you'll be able to get more money in on the expensive streets and possibly keep MP interested.

Hand 3: Yes, bet the river. It's a big pot and you're not winning by showing this down.

JasonP530

10-25-2004, 08:25 PM

shorthanded is different than full games, especially with respect to the river. With A9 in that spot, you want to win a small pot, not play a decent sized one out of position. Your opponent likely has you beat or has outs with a draw, as most people would release second pair on the turn to a bet. This means that you shouldnt value bet the river, but should check and call.

In the second hand, others have spoken about the cold call then cap, and I believe they are right.

In the third hand, unless the game is great, you probably shouldnt limp with KTs UTG. You wouldnt want to raise, as you are looking to win a big pot with a made straight(or backdoor flush). I cant see any pair you hit being good, so you dont have any other clean outs. When you make the straight, they will pay, when you dont, it will be cheap. Might as well leave them in there.

Just my thoughts. Hope they help.

1800GAMBLER

10-25-2004, 08:49 PM

1. Bet out on the flop. Checkfold the river.

As a 2nd and last option though: this is probably the only situation in which i can think checkcalling is better than betfolding the reason for that is, not to induce a bluff, but because i think a lot of the time a ten will check behind here that would have called a bet. i.e. better hand checking behind > worse hand checking behind - and better hands folding doesn't enter the equation.

2. I'd still wait for the turn.

3. Don't bet that river AK calls.

In replies to others:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: I really hate the flop raise. Not only are you shutting out the players behind you when all you have is a draw (and you should be inducing as many of them as possible to call)

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with any part of that board calls two just as easily as one. Only with the exception of pocket pairs yet J,x does.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Just call the 3 bet on the flop and you'll be able to get more money in on the expensive streets

[/ QUOTE ]

Great line. Everyone over looks this and jams on the flop when they are like a 54% favourite (obviously i'm not referring to this hand atm), that extra sb with a 4% overlay just cost them a possible 2bbs on the turn when they hit as they just slowed the preflop raiser down.

fnord_too

10-25-2004, 10:25 PM

Thanks for all the responses!

Hand 1: The c/r and lead is something I employ a lot. In this case, the board is probably too draw heavy, with the 8c being a pretty heinous turn. I don't know if I had stats on the villain here, but it went check check, he shows a Q4o and mhig.

Hand 2: I think I have to wait for the turn here too. My delima was if I cold call, I'm marked for a queen anyway, so I thought a cap might look even less like a queen. I have problems maximizining my monsters in multiway pots, unfortunately, I don't get these problems very often.

Hand 3: I don't remember why I limped UTG with KTs. It is not something I typically do, so I'll give myself the benefit of the doubt and assume the table was playing LP at the time. I raised the flop hoping to drive out everyone behind me. I knew I was almost definitely tied to the river, and thought I raising would increase my chances of winning the hand. I think now it probably did raise those chances but was less +EV than calling. The turn bet I though a lot about before I made it. My thoughts went something like: "I'm pretty sure I have more than 1/3 pot equity, so if they both call that's +EV. They both may fold, that's good news, too. If one calls and one folds, that's not so good." I decided it was better to err on the side of aggression. I fired at the river. I thought "well, if it works 10% of the time its +EV." I still don't know if this will get two folds 10% of the time, but to my amazement it did here.

In general, I'm having a hard time deciding what works and what doesn't in this game right now because I am running very hot. I am kind of worried I am picking up some bad habits that will come home to roost, or at least failing to excise the "bad" habits that are good habits in shorthanded. I do feel pretty good when the game drops to shorthanded, which happens way more than I would have thought.

Nightwish

10-26-2004, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: I really hate the flop raise. Not only are you shutting out the players behind you when all you have is a draw (and you should be inducing as many of them as possible to call)

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with any part of that board calls two just as easily as one. Only with the exception of pocket pairs yet J,x does.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you telling me that any Jx will call? I don't think so. The only hands that're almost guaranteed to call 2 cold are a flush draw or a big Q. Raising the flop is just bad.

goofball

10-26-2004, 03:06 AM

in hand two i think it's abundantly clear you should smooth call the flop to bring MP with you to the turn. Pop the turn or river depending on your read of MP

1800GAMBLER

10-26-2004, 08:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you telling me that any Jx will call? I don't think so. The only hands that're almost guaranteed to call 2 cold are a flush draw or a big Q. Raising the flop is just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise TT preflop. 5 callers. Flop comes Jh Qo 2h. BB bets, you? Given after my raise i'd be getting 10:1 if i thought any jack would fold i'd most def raise here.

Nightwish

10-26-2004, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you telling me that any Jx will call? I don't think so. The only hands that're almost guaranteed to call 2 cold are a flush draw or a big Q. Raising the flop is just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise TT preflop. 5 callers. Flop comes Jh Qo 2h. BB bets, you? Given after my raise i'd be getting 10:1 if i thought any jack would fold i'd most def raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you even talking about the same hand? I'm talking about hand 3 in the original post, where the BB raised preflop and bet out on the flop.