Flat Calling & Final Tables

[Chief911]

Last night, as the 11+Rebuy wound down, we got down to being 3 handed, and this situation came up. I couldn't believe the difference it made, and it was totally unexpected, and just showed how much I had to learn about Poker.

The 3 stacks were about this:

BigStack - 3 Million
Smaller Stack - 750k
Me - 1.5 Million

The smaller stack seemed to have 9 lives, and had doubled up several times when getting lower, and was battling. The big stack was not trying to run over the table, and the two of us were fairly content for a while to simply slowly eat up the small stack's chips.

Several times early in 3 handed play, I raised 3xBB from the SB (The button small stack almost ALWAYS folded while on the button). Multiple times he set me all in with a reraise, and I was forced to lay down a variety of hands like 9Ts, A5s, etc. He then even said "Stop it" "Serious" as if that would make me automatically stay off his blind.

As I was discussing the tournament with a player I highly respect, he said the following. Stop raising from the SB where you are out of position, and start flat calling, and play from there.

I was shocked by the results. I started calling from the SB with almost any two cards. And 75% of the time would lead out with a minibet of 40k after the flop. He laid his hand down almost every time. It was like once out of the reraise mode, he didnt know what to do with my flat calls.

So what do you guys think? Is this a fairly unique situation, or have you used something like this to your advantage? This was certienly part of the game that I was not using, especially at the final table.

Nick

[Solitare]

I don't know about your Smaller Stack guy, but if you are only completing the SB against me, I'm coming over the top on you with a wider variety of hands than if you raise me 3BB.

[betgo]

I assume this is on Poker Stars. I have found that final table tricky to play, because the BB doesn't go over 40K and there are a lot of aggressive players (I like the tournament due to all the bad loose aggressive players).

This is kind of player dependent. I guess your opponent took kindlier to a limp. Generally, it's better to raise. In this situation, I would keep raising and folding to his pushes. Then when you have a big hand, call him.

[MLG]

I will quite often limp, auto bet from the SB. If the player isn't particularly good but knows you are stealing his blind this play works well. It controls the size of the pot when you are out of position, and, if you limp and then pot it on the flop you are risking exactly the same amount of chips you would be with preflop raise.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
I will quite often limp, auto bet from the SB. If the player isn't particularly good but knows you are stealing his blind this play works well. It controls the size of the pot when you are out of position, and, if you limp and then pot it on the flop you are risking exactly the same amount of chips you would be with preflop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are risking the same amount of chips as you would with the preflop raise, but you have increased the risk. He now has a lot more information about his own prospects and can more easily call or fold to your all in.

Obviously against this player completing was a better strategy, since he apparently wasnt confident enough in his ability to evaluate marginal hands to play on without power. He broadcast his weakness with his "Stop that...Serious" remark, and probably has all kinds of tells live. In general raising is the better option imo.

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally, it's better to raise. In this situation, I would keep raising and folding to his pushes. Then when you have a big hand, call him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was watching these hands. I expected you to keep playing him the same way (i.e. raise and fold preflop, until you had a monster), as I really thought he was a sitting duck with those constant all-in reraises.

But I did notice your success with the change up. I was surprised he didn't raise your pf flat-calls, and that he folded so easily on the flop raise, when you were clearly raising almost every time.

He was easy pickings. And I think he knew he wasn't as good as you. Notice he was the first one to suggest an even three-way chop, when the chipcounts were approx. t2.2 million (him), t1.3 million (you), t1.6 million (other guy)?

I thought the chop was an easy choice for ya'll since it paid more than second place, even.

Congratulations again.

-Z

[MLG]

you aren't going all-in on the flop, you are making a bet. If he raises you can fold if you don't have anything.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]

You are risking the same amount of chips as you would with the preflop raise, but you have increased the risk.


[/ QUOTE ]

No you aren't. You are risking alot less. I assume the blinds were 20K/40K here (which is the max on Stars and usually reached by the end of the big rebuy events). If you raise preflop, it's going to be at least to 100K probably. If you complete and then bet out 40K on the flop and get laydowns a reasonable amount of the time, this is defnitely a good strategy. I do this quite alot at shorthanded tables in SnGs and tournaments. I think of it as a "delayed steal".

The correct way for the BB to adjust, as has been mentioned, is to raise you when you complete quite alot. Of course, then you can just complete with a monster and trap him...

[Chief911]

What Cferejohn said.

You are not risking the same amount of chips, and are making it much easier for him to fold. You're only betting an extra 20k into an 65k pot, instead of another 100k into the 65k pot. And if you min-bet on the flop, its another 40k, making your total investment above your SB 60k, instead of the 100k on a standard 3xBB raise.

It worked very well.

RE: the deal, I felt (And I think I'm FAR from being an very good player) that I was probably the better of the 3 players. But the lowstack had continually won flips or worse when he was shortstacked to come back, and the variance aspect is always there. I felt that taking the even chop was a good deal.

This particular scenario certienly was an interesting one though, and a part of my game that I had NEVER used before. Always good to learn, and add something new.

Nick

[Rick Diesel]

I think that you HAVE to take the deal. Odds are that at the end of a tournament like this you are pretty tired, and may not have your A+ game (assuming this is the 10:15 pm rebuy, which does not end until 4:00 am at the absolute earliest).

Last Thursday night in this tourney I played three handed for almost an hour. That can sure wear you down. Plus, once the blinds max out, there are no more 5 minute breaks. I don't know about you, but I need those breaks to keep myself sane.

A three way chop getting you more than second place $$$ is a great deal when you are lowest in chips, even if you are the best player.

Rick Diesel

[MLG]

I see where I was missing something. I don't usually min bet the flop, I pot it, or slightly less (60 on flop plus 40 preflop as opposed to 100 preflop). Anyway, one of the main things that separates good players from bad ones, is that the good ones continually adjust and change up their strategy like you did. The bad ones get exploited by that adjustment, like he did.

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
the deal, I felt (And I think I'm FAR from being an very good player) that I was probably the better of the 3 players. But the lowstack had continually won flips or worse when he was shortstacked to come back, and the variance aspect is always there. I felt that taking the even chop was a good deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree. You had the least amount of chips when the deal was first proposed. Not a small stack, exactly, but it was something like 2.2:1.8:1.3 million. Even if you were the best player (and I think you were), you're odds of coming in first were only, say, 40%? (compared to 33%), and you would have to come in first to get more than the $5K you did get.

-Z

[Chief911]

MLG,

Yah, I thought I might need to do that, but when he continually played weak to my raises (Essentially playing his cards, he's raise or call once of every 4 or 5 times) I decided there was no reason to march out 80k there when 40k did the job. I was in a bit of shock as to how well it worked. Just shows how much there is to learn about the small nuances of poker. I've won a number of tourneys now, and up until a month ago had never used (Knowingly) the Stop and Go, and learned a valuable lesson last night as well.

Nick