Was I betting the turn FOR VALUE?

[DavidC]

Hey guys, I was wondering if someone would give me some advice on playing this hand.

I'd like to add that I've got 6300 hands in my DB right now, I'm a TA-A player on the bisonbison scale, but I'm probably TAG-LAG if you look at what kinds of hands I'm betting with on the turn / how often I bluff on the flop. I'm currently up about 2.5 bb/100 hands, and I four-table most of the time, though I was single tabled this time.

Is 2.5 a good win rate so far? Is 6300 hands reasonable size yet, or do I need to get closer to 25k?

Also, I tend to argue a bit in my responses, so be warned. But I'm really trying to learn; I just don't want to take anything on faith here. (If I were into that, I wouldn't bother reading this site at all.)

My thoughts on how I played follow, as well as specific questions on specific streets.

My only read, on the MP player, is in the hand conversion.

... and here be the hand:

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 (who called UTG w/qq a few hands ago, and called me down with pair of kings 4 kicker all the way to the river once) calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (14 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 24 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font>

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Pre-flop: Not too much to talk about here. There were plenty of people in the pot and the hand was weak but playable.

Flop: This was just about a perfect hit for me. I cold called the raise because I didn't want everyone bailing (the pot wasn't huge). Was this the right thing to do, or should I have re-raised?

Turn: I have 8 outs for the straight, 7 outs for the flush, and 1.5 for the overcard queen, if you want to count that, considering how weak my kicker is.

I think the checkraise here drove out the overcallers that I wanted to have in the hand in case I hit. It may have restored strength to my queen though. I think this was a pretty bad play because my driving out overcallers I'm not longer betting for value, and by checking I'm risking a free card when I should be building the pot.

Since checkraising was definitely a bad play, this leaves check-calling, bet calling and bet raising.

Was the fact that I'm drawing to q-high flush make check-calling on the turn a good option? That seems way too passive to me, but it's possible that it is the best play, I suppose.

If betting for value here is legitimate, that leaves two options: bet-calling, or bet-raising.

I think bet-calling is good, and I'm comfortable with it, because it keeps a bunch of overcallers in. If people will call to the cap, then bet-raising is obviously the way to go. The problem is that I don't have any reads on these guys, so what should I do when it gets raised from the button? How many would you think would call the raise? Do you think it would be capped?

What kind of scenario do I want to have in order to bet-raise?

If my hand is currently 1:2 to win, then is raising until I have two callers good or bad? Why would I want to put in that extra bet for no potential profit when it's possible that one of my draws isn't good. Personally, I really want to have more than 3 people in this (including myself).

River: The bet was fine. I hit my draw so I bet, that's a damn good thing. However, was my re-raise here good? Since we're dealing with flushes here, there's no possibility of him laying down my hand.

I didn't have any reads on any of the guys in the hand except that the MP caller may be P-P, or too damn tricky for his own good.

Again, any comments on this hand or on the thought process used here would be awesome. I really appreciate it.

Thanks guys and take care,
Dave.

[Ajax410]

Lot of questions...I'll see if I can get to all of them. Wish me luck!

6300 is a blip on the radar. It sucks, I know, but it's the way it is. Over a short period of time, anything that appears green in your pokertracker database is a good thing. Over a long period of time, anything over 2 is pretty solid, over 3 is good, and over 4 means you're probably ready to move up limits.

Arguing makes this forum what it is, so if you disagree with any of my remarks, please, let me hear it. It'll help me too. I swear.

First - I like betting out the flop. It's the move I make all the time. However, I do raise this once it gets back to me. There are a lot of possible hands that are going to pay whatever they have to pay in order to see the turn - and there is enough in the pot to justify most people coming along for a couple more.

I absolutely bet the turn. Of the options possible, I think the check-raise is actually the worst. At this point in time, you want to trap the field for extra bets, not force people out. Check-raising is a worse option than overcalling, because ultimately your thinning the field. Pot equity of 1/3 heads up isn't nearly as good as when there are 4-5 people in the hand. So, I bet the flop, if it gets raised, I reraise again.

River - there is one hand that beats you. Bet for all your worth.

All in all, I think that you definitly lost some bets on the turn. The check raise is fine...if the raiser is immediatly on your left. But since the entire field is between you and the aggressor, check-raising is ultimately just thinning out the field for your draw...never a good thing.

Hope this helps.

Ajax

[Evan]

I'm kinda tired so I'm just gonna talk about the hand itself. I knwo you had some quesitons about stats and I think I saw the number 6800 in there. If that's a hand count than forget about stats for a while, focus on playing solid poker.

Preflop- fine

Flop- You have 15 outs to a straight/flush that I'm guessing are all squeeky clean. You also have 3 top pair outs that are very questionable. Let's say your hand is worth 16 outs. That makes you about a 1.9-1 dog to improve on the turn. In a 6 handed pot your hand is a monster, you should be pumping that flop as hard as you can, especially with 3 callers between you and the raiser. So make suer you 3 bet there next time.

Turn- There's no reason to check-raise the turn. It's actaully counterproductive to your goals. You want to get as many people in for as many bets as possible. Making people call to BB's cold is a good way to knock them out of a hand. A much better play is to bet and hope you get raised again so you can 3 bet.

River- You have the second nuts, go crazy!!!

[Ajax410]

I think we just said exactly the same thing. Hopefully we won't get yelled at by the poster /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Evan]

Haha. I didn't even read yours (I actually didn't even read half of the first post). I'm glad we agreed at least, that way one of us doesn't have to feel stupid. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ajax410]

Bah - I NEVER feel stupid. My ego is too huge. Anyone who disagrees with me clearly has a lower IQ, so there isn't any use in reading their post for content or insight. As long as you stay in line, I might continue to read your posts.

Ajax

[DavidC]

No worries re: saying it twice.

I'm a little worried about re-raising second nuts when it's a flush, because it's really obvious that a flush is what you're going for and it's what they have.

As it turns out, I got capped after the re-raise, and I paid off a k-high flush.

I'm a little curious as to what other hand would have capped the river on me and as to how many hands would call my three bet (my guess is that most would in such a large pot).

I suppose in that case three-betting isn't too too bad (best in terms of long term results, probably).

My general rule is that I call after the 3rd raise in a casino if I don't have the nuts, unless i've got a massive read on someone.

Online, where the cap is four, I still get a little nervous with second nuts unless I put my opponent on something lesser earlier in the hand.

With the checkraise on the turn, though, my opponent probably didn't put me on a flush draw, and the board didn't pair, so evne with a j-high flush, he would likely have been capping here.

I appreciate the input guys.

[meep_42]

PF - Fine.
Flop - I go for the overcalls here, too... but if you think that 2 of the 4 behind you are going to come along for the ride, go for the raise.
Turn - I check/call here to keep in 2nd best hands that will call the river.
River - 2nd nuts? I play the same. (If you'd have called the river, a c/r on the river where you could call a 3-bet may have been a safer line)

-d

[wabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little worried about re-raising second nuts when it's a flush, because it's really obvious that a flush is what you're going for and it's what they have.

...

With the checkraise on the turn, though, my opponent probably didn't put me on a flush draw, and the board didn't pair, so evne with a j-high flush, he would likely have been capping here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this answers why you should 3-bet the river. There's only one hand that beats you, so you should be taking the money of people who think their J-high flush is best. The 3-bet on the river is excellent.

I don't check/raise the turn; I bet and would likely call a raise. I see, though, that re-raising is the better option. I will have to look and see if I'm making this mistake in my game.

[SlantNGo]

Forget overcalls on the flop, 3-bet it if you think any one of the three will call, and at 0.5/1 Party, that is usually the case.

Going for overcalls places 4 more SB into the pot on the flop (1 from you, 3 from callers).

3-betting places 2 more SB from you, 1 from the raiser (assuming he calls which he probably will), and 2 for each caller into the pot. So even if you get only one caller, that's 5 SB into the pot, still 3 of which aren't from you. And if you get more callers or if the raiser caps, even better.

I wouldn't worry about flush over flush. I 3-bet this every time.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
River - 2nd nuts? I play the same. (If you'd have called the river, a c/r on the river where you could call a 3-bet may have been a safer line)


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting play.

Anyone that re-raises your checkraise probably has something decent, so it gives you enough info that you know not to cap if you're raised. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm not sure if this is the right play, but it's certainly intriguing.

[Yads]

I don't think that saying 1 hand beats you is correct. In fact there are 7 hands that beat you. However even if you have 2nd nuts in holdem that's generally good enough. You can't start looking for monsters under the bed. Yes sometimes you'll pay off a better hand, but more often then not you'll take the pot down.